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Finding various ways psyche is translated into English


DanG

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I'm trying to see (on one screen) the various ways that psyche [G5590] is translated into English. I know that I can do a key word search or Lemma search and read of all the verses, but I'm looking for a summary -- like what's in the Details window.

 

When I right click on the word "life" and choose Search For Key Number I get 102 hits in 92 verses. I'm using the NKJV. In the Details Analysis window it lists 13 different English words that are translated from [G5590]. (On a side note, two of the words listed are just capitalized words of non-capitalized words. It doesn't make sense to me that they are listed separately.) When I change to the Detail Concordance window it lists thousands of verses based on the English words, not based on [G5590]. I just want a list of verses sorted by how it's translated into English. Is that possible?

 

So I try searching for the Greek word psyche. When I right click on the corresponding Greek word in the GNT-TR (because I'm using the NKJV) and choose Search for Lemma I get 105 hits in 95 verses. Why is the number found different from the search for [G5590]? How can I find the 3 verses missing from my [G5590] search? And why are they missing? Anyway, In the Details Analysis window all I get is "yuch/ (yu/cw) soul, self, inner life = 105" with no other information. The Details Concordance Window lists all the verses in Greek sorted by books of the Bible.

 

So, how can I see all the ways a Greek word is translated into English in a certain translation (I would love to see this across multiple translations too, but this seems difficult enough). I would like to see a heading of one English word for psyche and the verses underneath where it is translated that way--same thing with the second English word and so on. The Details Analysis Window at least lists the English words, but there's no way to view the verses sorted by those words. Then I have the question of wondering why I'm missing three occurrences as compared to a search for the actual Greek Lemma.

 

Any help would be appreciated!!! I've spent way too much time trying to figure this out.

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I'm trying to see (on one screen) the various ways that psyche [G5590] is translated into English. I know that I can do a key word search or Lemma search and read of all the verses, but I'm looking for a summary -- like what's in the Details window.

 

When I right click on the word "life" and choose Search For Key Number I get 102 hits in 92 verses. I'm using the NKJV. In the Details Analysis window it lists 13 different English words that are translated from [G5590]. (On a side note, two of the words listed are just capitalized words of non-capitalized words. It doesn't make sense to me that they are listed separately.) When I change to the Detail Concordance window it lists thousands of verses based on the English words, not based on [G5590]. I just want a list of verses sorted by how it's translated into English. Is that possible?

 

So I try searching for the Greek word psyche. When I right click on the corresponding Greek word in the GNT-TR (because I'm using the NKJV) and choose Search for Lemma I get 105 hits in 95 verses. Why is the number found different from the search for [G5590]? How can I find the 3 verses missing from my [G5590] search? And why are they missing? Anyway, In the Details Analysis window all I get is "yuch/ (yu/cw) soul, self, inner life = 105" with no other information. The Details Concordance Window lists all the verses in Greek sorted by books of the Bible.

 

So, how can I see all the ways a Greek word is translated into English in a certain translation (I would love to see this across multiple translations too, but this seems difficult enough). I would like to see a heading of one English word for psyche and the verses underneath where it is translated that way--same thing with the second English word and so on. The Details Analysis Window at least lists the English words, but there's no way to view the verses sorted by those words. Then I have the question of wondering why I'm missing three occurrences as compared to a search for the actual Greek Lemma.

 

Any help would be appreciated!!! I've spent way too much time trying to figure this out.

 

The 3 verses different from the NKJVS and GNT-TR are: John 10.24; Acts 7.14; Rev 8.9. In these verses the word ψυχή is somewhat difficult to express in English (especially John 10.24). We can edit the tagging for these verses to include G5590. Keep in mind that although translations like the NKJV seek to be 'literal' there will not always be a 1:1 ratio (even for a word that seems obvious on the surface).

 

Maybe David can take a look at your search question

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The 3 verses different from the NKJVS and GNT-TR are: John 10.24; Acts 7.14; Rev 8.9. In these verses the word ψυχή is somewhat difficult to express in English (especially John 10.24). We can edit the tagging for these verses to include G5590. Keep in mind that although translations like the NKJV seek to be 'literal' there will not always be a 1:1 ratio (even for a word that seems obvious on the surface).

 

Rick,

 

Thank you. But how did you figure out which three verses were different? On a short list you could examine it manually, but not a long list. How would I know to look for psyche without G5590 assigned to it?

 

Also, I thought the Strong's numbers were assigned to the Greek words, not English words. So, why would the number not be present in these three cases?

 

Thanks again.

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The 3 verses different from the NKJVS and GNT-TR are: John 10.24; Acts 7.14; Rev 8.9. In these verses the word ψυχή is somewhat difficult to express in English (especially John 10.24). We can edit the tagging for these verses to include G5590. Keep in mind that although translations like the NKJV seek to be 'literal' there will not always be a 1:1 ratio (even for a word that seems obvious on the surface).

 

Maybe David can take a look at your search question…we're working like crazy to get new releases to you. ;-)

 

I checked in another Bible application and they tag "people" in Acts 7:14 with psyche and "living" in Rev 8:9 -- which both make sense. I don't know why they are not tagged in Accordance. For John 10:24 the other Bible software tags the entire phrase "do You keep us in doubt?" with pyche, which is obviously more difficult to translate (Clarke's commentary gives a good literal translation of the phrase.)

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Dan:

 

As to your question on why you cannot produce a concordance which is sorted by Key number: that's on our "honey do" list, but none of my honeys have yet had time to tackle it. However, I am not sure that we will offer a concordance of the Key numbers. That's a good idea. For now it takes the hit words and concords them all throughout the range, whether those occurrences match the original search criteria or not. Again, we're hoping to add this kind of capability in the future: to list the search results and their references.

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As to your question on why you cannot produce a concordance which is sorted by Key number: that's on our "honey do" list, but none of my honeys have yet had time to tackle it. However, I am not sure that we will offer a concordance of the Key numbers. That's a good idea. For now it takes the hit words and concords them all throughout the range, whether those occurrences match the original search criteria or not. Again, we're hoping to add this kind of capability in the future: to list the search results and their references.

 

I'm not sure I was clear. I don't want to sort by Key number, because I'm only searching for one Key number. I would like to sort by the various words that the Key number is translated into in the NKJV (or any other translation, for that matter)

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I checked in another Bible application and they tag "people" in Acts 7:14 with psyche and "living" in Rev 8:9 -- which both make sense. I don't know why they are not tagged in Accordance. For John 10:24 the other Bible software tags the entire phrase "do You keep us in doubt?" with pyche, which is obviously more difficult to translate (Clarke's commentary gives a good literal translation of the phrase.)

 

The ESVS and NAS95S handle it similarly, which is why I said we would probably change it. :)

 

edit: just reread my post and saw that I didn't say probably.

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Rick,

 

Thank you. But how did you figure out which three verses were different? On a short list you could examine it manually, but not a long list. How would I know to look for psyche without G5590 assigned to it?

 

Also, I thought the Strong's numbers were assigned to the Greek words, not English words. So, why would the number not be present in these three cases?

 

Thanks again.

 

I searched for G5590 and ψυχή respectively and copied the references (Copy As > References) to a text doc and compared them manually. I couldn't think of a nifty way to do this in Accordance.

 

Strong's numbers are assigned to each Greek word occurring in the NT. These numbers are then tagged to English words used to translate the Greek (all obvious thus far). Just because a Greek word occurs doesn't mean that the particular key number assigned to it will be used in the English translation. Sometimes translators skip them (mostly because of redundancy), or sometimes they adopt a reading not even found in the Greek text we use to tag it (this occurs in the ESV).

 

For a phrase such as the one in John we have to exercise caution in assigning double or triple-tags to an English word. Our philosophy is that the Greek word must be present in some way in the translation, and then we will add the tag to the most meaningful word in the phrase (or the last word in the phrase). This obviously takes some thought as there is no indication in the English translations as to why or how they arrived at their reading. Part of the caution is so that you don't get strange search results when searching for a key number.

 

I say all this just to give you some background on what goes into our work. As previously indicated we will edit these instances in the NKJVS. In the future if you notice specific errors in tagging (which despite the many hours we work on them, do occur), email Helen directly so that she can log them for future updates to these texts.

 

HTH

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I searched for G5590 and ψυχή respectively and copied the references (Copy As > References) to a text doc and compared them manually. I couldn't think of a nifty way to do this in Accordance.

 

Strong's numbers are assigned to each Greek word occurring in the NT. These numbers are then tagged to English words used to translate the Greek (all obvious thus far). Just because a Greek word occurs doesn't mean that the particular key number assigned to it will be used in the English translation. Sometimes translators skip them (mostly because of redundancy), or sometimes they adopt a reading not even found in the Greek text we use to tag it (this occurs in the ESV).

 

For a phrase such as the one in John we have to exercise caution in assigning double or triple-tags to an English word. Our philosophy is that the Greek word must be present in some way in the translation, and then we will add the tag to the most meaningful word in the phrase (or the last word in the phrase). This obviously takes some thought as there is no indication in the English translations as to why or how they arrived at their reading. Part of the caution is so that you don't get strange search results when searching for a key number.

 

I say all this just to give you some background on what goes into our work. As previously indicated we will edit these instances in the NKJVS. In the future if you notice specific errors in tagging (which despite the many hours we work on them, do occur), email Helen directly so that she can log them for future updates to these texts.

 

Thanks again for all your help. Just two comments.

 

If I find an error in tagging I'll will report it to Helen. But I don't think I would have realized it was an error in tagging without your help... and don't know how I would have even known that on my own.

 

Second, after struggling to do this in Accordance for quite awhile and then posting this on the forum for help I found that I was able to do this rather quickly in the "other" company's software. (This seems ironic in light of David Lang's blog post entitled "Yes, you can!" -- especially since he makes a jab at the ability of other software.) I really like Accordance, but as the other software matures pretty quickly I can see the benefits of both programs. That concerns me a bit for the future of Accordance.

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Thanks again for all your help. Just two comments.

 

If I find an error in tagging I'll will report it to Helen. But I don't think I would have realized it was an error in tagging without your help... and don't know how I would have even known that on my own.

 

Second, after struggling to do this in Accordance for quite awhile and then posting this on the forum for help I found that I was able to do this rather quickly in the "other" company's software. (This seems ironic in light of David Lang's blog post entitled "Yes, you can!" -- especially since he makes a jab at the ability of other software.) I really like Accordance, but as the other software matures pretty quickly I can see the benefits of both programs. That concerns me a bit for the future of Accordance.

 

My suggestion to email Helen wasn't to negate your post here in any way. You're always welcome to post questions like this. Just meant that IF you find any errors in the future, email them to her. :-)

 

Don't take David's 'jabs' too seriously, they're harmless. In the world of software there will always be things one similar app can do that another cannot, or not as easily. David even mentioned that 'yes you can' isn't always the case. This definitely shouldn't concern you about our future! (especially in light of the big things in store for this year)

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