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Translation Alternative Wanted


Obed Benyah

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Gold,

I am referring to the Jewish Study Bible and to the Annotated Jewish New Testament (as Helen has pointed out). Brettler has nothing to do with the Amplified.

Brandeis U has nothing to do with any fundamentalist movement,neither Christian nor Jewish. It is a university with a wonderful Judaic department whose scholars are second to none.

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Gorab1:

 

Thank you for your input on The Jewish Study Bible and the Annotated New Testament. I did manage to find some on-line interior pages for both and was able to get a flavor of what they are - and what they are not. What I really desire is a version of the text itself that reflects the Hebraic understandings of the words. Both of these works seem to lean toward a more modernistic approach to the translations, not toward the older perspectives.

 

I owe Helen Brown a deep note of thanks in this regard also, for reminding me of The Schocken Bible by Dr. Everett Fox. I had set it aside and hadn't looked at it for a while. My renewed acquaintance with it is proving MOST valuable. He has done very much what I desire to see in a text. He manages to portray in English much of the character of the Hebrew language. His notes are most valuable. And his concept of breaking the text into "breathing parts" is profound in its impact, especially when read out loud as he recommends. My only disappointment is in the lengthy time involved in completing the entire Scriptures in this manner.

 

Appreciating your kindness,

Obed

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The JPS version and the complete Jewish Bibles are likely going to be your best bets, aside from the two torah versions mentioned (at least I think the modern Jewish commentary was mentioned).

 

-Dan

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OakTree Software, Inc.

 

Enoch, you have strayed from our guidelines by referring negatively to the differing views discussed in this topic. Of course each translation is an interpretation to some extents, and reflects the views of the translators/editors/publishers. On our forums all views are welcome. Please do not disparage either the posters on the forum, nor the authors and editors of the works we offer. You can state a disagreement, but respectfully and cordially, please!

 

The two volumes that Brettler edited are the The Jewish Study Bible and The Annotated Jewish New Testament. He is a most respected and distinguished scholar and a long-time supporter of Accordance. Brandeis is a Jewish University of high-standing and scholarship, and we greatly appreciate his and their contributions to Biblical scholarship.

 

Yes, the Amplified Bible and the NASB (Lockman) were published by evangelical scholars, and as I said, each work reflects certain views, but that does not make them less valuable. On the contrary, the ability to consult works from different perspectives can only deepen our understanding of the text.

 

Again, issues of doctrine are beyond the scope of this forum, and we request that everyone honor the guidelines.

Well Helen, I see that I am going to have to be a lot more careful about what I post here. But thanks for telling me that "On our forums all views are welcome," which means that my views are welcome.

 

However, I don't believe I disparaged a poster, but I did question the disparagement of the Amplified Bible by someone else. When I read a post that seemed to indicate that a Brandeis professor had praised a Lockman Foundation product (like the Amp), I thought that was strange and should be addressed. This whole thread concerns obtaining the best translation of the Bible, an issue which cannot really be addressed honestly without doctrinal issues being raised. If one buys the Amplified, it is objective fact to note that it is evangelical. And how are you going to allow a thread like this and forbid anything negative to be said about a product you sell (a particular translation)? And BTW, this thread began with a general disparagement of translations.

 

But as I say, I see I will have to be much more careful what I post here; apparently I was under the wrong impression as to the nature of OakTree Software, Inc. (thinking it was a Christian company). I did not realize that any of my posts above would step on your toes, which certainly was not my purpose.

Edited by Enoch
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  • 1 year later...

Let me say a word about the Amplified Bible. The various synonyms in parentheses are NOT alternate translations of the original Greek or Hebrew word. If they were, I'd recommend this translation highly. Instead, they are synonyms of the English [translated] word. That's a very different thing, a bad thing.

 

Each English word has a different range of meanings than the Greek/Hebrew word. Each synonym has its own range of meaning, again, different than the original Hebrew/Greek. As a result, the Amplified Bible doesn't solve the problem. It compounds it!

 

Use a lexicon to find the range of meaning for the original words. If nothing else, rely on the gloss [short meaning] in Instant Details in Accordance. If that isn't enough information, then press the command key [PC Alt] and read the entry in that source. If that still isn't enough, buy a good wordbook or lexicon for each language. It's the only way I know to nail the meaning of the original words.

 

We recently looked more closely into the Amplified Bible.  Like the NASB, it comes from the Lockman Foundation (non-profit).  It, in fact, was not translated by a lady with an English thesaurus, but by a lady who studied Hebrew and Greek.  Here's the link.  Just wanted to set the record straight.

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Unfortunately the link refers only to another Software.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

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BTW, I think a translation that actually did what the Amplified claims would be a great asset. Anyone want to write one?

 

A church member of us would also love this, in German. Best with Strongs and morph tagging too.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

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Unfortunately the link refers only to another Software.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

 

 

That link takes you you the Lockman site, the page dealing with the Amplified.  It's not software.  Lockman doesn't sell software.

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Hello Julie

 

On the Lockman foundation for the Amplified 2015 is a link to another software. It was not against what you wrote, more that the Lockman foundation is not referring to Accordance on this side. 

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

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Hello Julie

 

On the Lockman foundation for the Amplified 2015 is a link to another software. It was not against what you wrote, more that the Lockman foundation is not referring to Accordance on this side. 

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

 

This is the info from the link – scroll down past the video:

 

"The Story of the Amplified Bible

"The story of the Amplified Bible is a remarkable story of faith, hope, and love. It's the story of a woman, a foundation, a committee, and a publisher. Commitment, energy, enthusiasm, and giftedness--these are the words that paint the picture, the picture of the making of a translation.
 
"Frances Siewert (Litt. B., B.D., M.A., Litt. D.) was a woman with an intense dedication to the study of the Bible. It was Mrs. Siewert (1881-1967) who laid the foundation of the Amplified Bible, devoting her life to a familiarity with the Bible, with the Hebrew and Greek languages, and with the cultural and archaeological background of Biblical times, which would result in the publication of this unique translation.
 
"Every vision needs visionaries willing to follow the cause. The story of this dream is no different. Mrs. Siewert's vision was seen by a California non-profit foundation called The Lockman Foundation, made up of Christian men and women who through their commitment, their expertise, and their financial support under girded Mrs. Siewert's monumental translation project. The Lockman Foundation's purpose remains today what is was then: to promote Bible translation, Christian evangelism, education, and benevolence.
 
"Commitment, energy, enthusiasm, giftedness --the things visions are made of--describes the efforts of the committee appointed by The Lockman Foundation to carefully review the impressive work of Mrs. Siewert. This Editorial Board, made up of dedicated people, lent credibility and organization to this unprecedented attempt to bring out the richness of the Hebrew and Greek languages within the English text itself.
 
"One chapter yet remained to bring the vision into reality. A publishing house in Grand Rapids, Michigan, on its way to becoming a major religious publishing firm, seized the opportunity to participate in a project which all visionaries involved strongly believed would be used by God to change lives. The Zondervan Publishing House joined the team, and the dream became reality with the publication of The Amplified New Testament in 1958, followed by the two-volume Amplified Old Testament in 1962 and 1964, and the one-volume Amplified Bible in 1965.
 

"Since the Amplified Bible was first translated in the sixties, there have been changes in both the style and usage of the English language; therefore, it seemed appropriate for The Lockman Foundation to revisit this well-loved translation of God's Word. Accordingly, Dr. Robert G. Lambeth, President of The Lockman Foundation, established a translation team and under his leadership the project was developed and completed in 2015. The result is a new Amplified Bible translation that is contemporary and firmly based on the foundation established by the Amplified Bible of 1965."

 

The video shows a woman with a print Bible, Amplified 2015, in front of her.  It says that the Amplified is available in print or software (something called E-SWORD).  Whether it comes print or electronic form has no bearing at all on the development of the version.  My whole point in posting this is to clarify that Frances Siewert didn't use an English thesaurus to expand a version, she used Hebrew & Greek lexicons.  I am not trying to say anything about anybody's software here.  I'm merely trying to relate how the version came into being.  And the link will get you to the story quoted above.

 

EDIT:  I added some quotation marks and italics to attempt to make clear where the quote begins and ends.

Edited by Julie Falling
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Julie:

Thank you for the update on the Amplified Bible 2015. I'll have to take a look at that when I have the time.

Everett Fox's two volumes have given me much insight and much inspiration. I simply can't wait another 20 years for volume three. I'm not likely to still be alive by then.

 

Since my original postings I've been motivated to do a bit of "re-translating" of my own on Scripture in order discover more of its original flavor and intent. That's a huge challenge for me since I don't have little to no formal or extensive training in Hebrew thought, Hebrew and Greek language issues, etc. I do, however, have numerous translations, lexicons, etc. to use as reference tools, as you've suggested. I've taken to re-creating the text in my personal note files in Accordance. That way I can instantly compare my notes with other books in the program. It's challenging to say the least, but it's extremely informative. Perhaps one day I can find a way to make it available to others within Accordance.

 

That, too, will be a challenge because I'm not a "techie" or a "geek". I'm just a senior citizen with a heart for The Truth of YAHWEH! To get to that stage I'll need much assistance. Meanwhile, if anyone is interested in seeing a rather different perspective on the text you're invited to visit my website, amarel.com. (There is nothing there "for sale" - it's all free.) Posted there in PDF form is the entire New Covenant and the first 8 books of The Old Covenant. I'm currently working on 2 Samuel - Shemu'el. Included in The Old Covenant text is an entirely unique approach to understanding the use of the aleph-tau construct. I discovered the foundations of this perspective in an old book I found on line. It opened up a whole new perspective for me on Scripture. What I've put together thus far is "a work in progress". It's FAR from a finished piece. It will take much editing and review to get it polished. But it's a beginning, and I believe it's an important one. The aleph-tau construct appears to me to have been extremely misconstrued in most previous works. It's far, far more than an "identified of a direct object".

 

Shalom,

Obed

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Accordance does not have these two resources, but you can purchase actual books.

 

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible:

http://www.amazon.com/Rotherhams-Emphasized-Joseph-Bryant-Rotherham/dp/082543601X

 

The Bible: James Moffatt Translation:

http://www.amazon.com/Bible-James-Moffatt-Translation/dp/0825432286/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1454381851&sr=1-1&keywords=moffatt+bible

 

The Old Testament portions of these works are very good.  I cannot attest to the New Testament portions.

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Michael,

Thank you for your recommendations. I have both of these.

Each of them has its merits, and its short-comings.

I have yet to see a text that accurately and consistently gives the name of The Elohim.

Invariably most of them use the English "transliteration" of Hebrew names, or an English "representation" of a name which ends up leaving out the vital significance within the Hebrew culture of a name and its meaning. This is a tragic loss because the English reader has no clue at to the meaning and value of the name.

To leave out - intentionally - the name of YAHWEH is to violate intensively what's referred to as "The Third Commandment". (And quite literally, it's not a "commandment" but is instead an instruction. Torah means, profoundly, teaching! It does not mean "command". Yet that has become the "traditional standard" for English texts.

I certainly understand there is no "perfect" text, nor will there ever be in this life. There will be on in the next from what I can perceive.

Meanwhile I yearn for clarity and consistency in the text.

I yearn for total honesty in the publication of the text. To know, for example, the name of YAHWEH yet to substitute for it "The Lord" or whatever else gets inserted (Ha Shem, Adonai, etc.) is HERESY!!!! It is an detestable for the very reason it belittles, treats lightly, the name of my Elohim.

I count this as terrible "scholarship".  And it's only one of many similar errors that have been inserted into our "Bibles" by "the traditions of men".

The Messiah Himself condemned such actions.

How can we, in our "enlightened age", possibly condone such practices? We know better. But we have failed to correct what we know to be blatant errors.

Can YAHWEH be pleased with such an approach to HIS WORD? I think not!

May we humbly confess our offenses before His throne of compassion - and change the way we treat His Word!

 

Obed Benyah

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Hi Obed,

 

You are not going to find a translation that gives the real meaning of the names of the people noted in the Word of God as their names.  You also are not going to find a translation that emphatically illustrates the value of numbers made mention of in the Word of God.  When the names of Abram and Sarai were changed by God to Abraham and Sarah, the significance is lost to most Bible students.  The letter Heth was added to each of their names.  Heth is the fifth letter of the Hebrew alphabet and the number five signifies Grace.  Things like that cannot be translated, but are left to the few that choose to dig deeper and ask for help and guidance from the only one that can open eyes and ears.  In both the case of the names and of the numbers, going directly to the Hebrew is the only route.  I believe that is purposeful, as only those that really want to know will get out a shovel and dig.

 

Regards,

Michael

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Obed:

 

You are entitled to your opinions on the state of English translations, but the manner in which you are expressing them here is actually violating our forum guidelines:

 

Discussion of Biblical interpretation, points of theology, and personal beliefs is inappropriate for this board, as are personal announcements and off-topic requests. While we encourage such interchange, we ask that you discuss these issues privately, rather than using the Forums. Content directly attacking the character of a person or group is also prohibited.

 

 

Please try to keep to our guidelines. they are there for the good of all our users.

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Dave Brunn is an expert on Bible translation. I recommend one re-orients one's view of what Bible translation really is in practice and the limitations that educated people have on the translation projects they work on. 

 

https://youtu.be/BlpNgLhD1vA

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Adding to Daniel R's post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxwYK2duyPg

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First of all, my apologies to Dr. Brown and the forum for moving outside the guidelines.

I'm not a "frequent flyer" on forums. It's been quite some time since I even visited this site.

I failed to remember the guidelines.

I'm truly sorry for the oversight on my part.

 

My original question has been answered very well. It's become very evident that there is no alternative translation available in Accordance that conforms to my study interests. I was really hoping to find such a version, perhaps from an individual on the forum. Many good suggestions have been provided - and I want to thank each one who has offered them. Dr. Everett Fox's work comes the closest to meeting my needs, but it only involves his one volume on The Torah. That's simply not sufficient for me at this point.

 

As noted in a previous post I have begun work on a new version for my purposes that may one day be made available in Accordance. I am creating a personal note for every verse in Scripture within my Accordance program. I have just finished the first draft of 2 Samuel this morning and will be posting it to my website soon. All of this is indeed a "work in progress". I make no claim that it's a "finished product". Nor would I dare to suggest it's without errors and/or misconceptions. By the kindness and compassions of YAHWEH I will continue.

 

May I suggest to the moderator that this topic on the forum be closed?

It has served the purpose for which I intended it.

 

In His Kindness,

Obed Benyah

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The PDF-document http://www.newtestamentchristians.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Accurately-Handling-the-Word-of-Truth-By-David-Webb.pdf by David Webb p. 52f has a point: In passages that have detailed legal matters, use of strong visual imagery or figurative prophetic language, English Bible versions - especially the ones with low reading level - increase the word count, even more so if there's theological language.
The PDF by Webb compares the word count of only a few versions and compares the word counts to the the NRSV. I did a Text Comparison and noticed that the 2004 Good News Translation 3rd Edition UK-English 66-book Bible uses many more words than the NRSV to convey the same things in Eph 1. Now, the original 39-book Old Testament team that produced the 1976 Good News Bible, comprised of 5 more translators besides Bratcher.
So I wanted to find an Old Testament example to see if the GNT uses more words: Joel 1 doesn't have a higher word count.

An example of when the 2004 3rd Edition GNT (compared to the NRSV) increases the word count in the Old Testament, is: Jer 8:3-12 except vv. 6b, 8.
And in Dt 12 it uses more words in some instances, with just slightly opaque formal equivalency, have a look at the way in which the translation wants to bring out points and focus in verses 30 and 11f.

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Obed,

 

You wrote,  "I have just finished the first draft of 2 Samuel this morning and will be posting it to my website soon" what might your website be? I would be interested in reading your "notes".

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  • 3 months later...

Obed Benyah,

I see that You still follow this thread!

I've been wanting to hint You about a Bible version which I since before use especially for Ps 127, Mt and Tit (that I remember well that I use it for). Looking at my newly refined up-to-date reading list/priorities I also use it for:

Prv

Is 1-2

Col 2:10, 3:6

Jas 1:13-20

1 Pt  2:13-19

Apocalypse when reading the Oxford Bible Commentary (otherwise may perhaps sometimes use other versions).

... the version is the 1985 NJB. I notice as I read for example Tit almost a Week ago that it's more verbose than other versions. In Mt it uses a manuscript with more words.

Two and a half days ago I just managed to get a divisive downpayment made on my Complete Biblical Library Old and New Testament sets - it's on a sale right now in WS, until early next Week! Many should take a look!

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Unix:

 

Thank you for your input on this topic. I'll take a look at the version you recommend.

 

I've been disappointed by most version I've encountered. As a result I've decided to "build" my own version of the text by using a variety of inputs from multiple resources. I'm not a "scholar". I'm also not a "grammarian" or an English specialist. And I certainly do not have an in depth understanding of Hebrew. 

 

However, I am very serious about trying to understand properly what YAHWEH has written in His Word. This should not be as difficult as it now is. It should, in my opinion, be possible for ANY PERSON to seek for a deep understanding of YAHWEH's Word - AND FIND IT! After all, it's is His promise to us that this will happen. So the question becomes, 'How does one do this?' I've taken an approach that uses the best resources I can find to help me understand what the words mean. I then look carefully at the context to determine the best understanding of that word. I then write/type that understanding into an updated version of the text. As a result I now have all of The New Covenant reworked and 12 books of The Old Covenant reworked into a text that includes a number of the missing elements that I personally believe should be within it. 

 

These updated texts are available on my website, amarel.com. They're all in PDF format. They can be downloaded for free. If you want to see the results please go to the website and review them for yourself. Notes are included right within the text column so you don't have to go searching for them. The format is different than most other formats also since I don't treat the verses as "paragraphs", but instead as "sections" with a different pattern for the statements within each "section". The text within the verses is not simply run from one statement into the next. The idea is to separate the concepts, in some cases for special emphasis.

 

There's one other very significant discovery that's included in The Old Covenant texts that does not appear in any other text I've seen to date. It is the use of the aleph-tau construct את. This construct is left out of virtually every other text. It's typically identified as "a marker for the direct object of a verb". That, it turns out, is not correct. It has a very special purpose. That purpose has been identified, even by James Strong - yet it is virtually ignored today. It's the concept of "self or selfsame". The function of this construct is to add emphasis to a word or phrase within the text. My version now has this function restored, at least as well as I can understand it's role at this point. My way of representing it may not be "perfect" but at least it provides a new way of understanding this vital element of YAHWEH's Word. He does NOTHING without a purpose. And He does not make errors. Thus, if this were a "marker for the direct object of a verb" it should appear with EVERY verb. It does not! But when it's understood as a means of adding emphasis to the text at certain points It reveals an entirely new and deeply rich meaning to portions of the text. 

 

I've been blessed to have another Accordance user and member of this forum assist me in getting the text formatted to use within Accordance. This is a work in progress yet, and not quite ready for release to other users of Accordance. However, in time I hope to make it available to others so you can put in in parallel with any other Accordance text and explore the differences.

 

I'm no longer looking for "an alternative text". I'm doing my best to create one that restores some missing items to the text and corrects certain errors that also exist. It will never be "perfect"because I'm simply a human being. But I do hope it will honor YAHWEH by representing His Word as faithfully as possible by someone who is not a "specialist". This should be something any person on earth can do if they set their heart to do it.

 

Thank you for your kind consideration and recommendation of this topic.

 

In His Compassion and Love,

 Obed Benyah

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