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#1 Rod Decker

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 02:05 PM

Here's a search that I'd like to think could be done with the Syntax module, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Any suggestions?

1. Direct discourse formula (e.g., λέγει αὐτοῖς)

2. Followed by direct discourse

3. Followed by an adverbial participle phrase (which would be nominative)


An example of the construction for which I'm trying to find parallels is Mark 7:18-19.

1. καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς·

2. οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀσύνετοί ἐστε; οὐ νοεῖτε ὅτι πᾶν τὸ ἔξωθεν εἰσπορευόμενον εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον οὐ δύναται αὐτὸν κοινῶσαι ὅτι οὐκ εἰσπορεύεται αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν καρδίαν ἀλλ᾿ εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν, καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἐκπορεύεται,

3. καθαρίζων πάντα τὰ βρώματα;

- - -
(30 views but no replies later...) I just remembered that there is a separate topic for syntax searches, but I guess I have no way to move this post to that forum. If an Admin/Sysop would like to do that, it's fine with me.

Edited by Rod Decker, 23 March 2011 - 05:53 PM.

Rodney J. Decker, ThD
Professor of NT & Greek
Baptist Bible Seminary
NTResources.com/blog/

#2 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 08:51 PM

Sorry, Rod. You caught me, at least, in the middle of a week of meetings and grading.

I'm working with Dr. J. on it and we'll try to get you an answer soon.

(The good news is that the accuracy of the syntax searching in 9.2.1. is greatly improved, although not quite perfect yet. That means that in April I'll be working up the searching manual, which I'll then give to the Greek folks to modify for the NT module.)

Robert
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Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com

#3 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 09:36 PM

Here's a search that I'd like to think could be done with the Syntax module, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Any suggestions?

1. Direct discourse formula (e.g., λέγει αὐτοῖς)

2. Followed by direct discourse

3. Followed by an adverbial participle phrase (which would be nominative)


An example of the construction for which I'm trying to find parallels is Mark 7:18-19.

1. καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς·

2. οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀσύνετοί ἐστε; οὐ νοεῖτε ὅτι πᾶν τὸ ἔξωθεν εἰσπορευόμενον εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον οὐ δύναται αὐτὸν κοινῶσαι ὅτι οὐκ εἰσπορεύεται αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν καρδίαν ἀλλ᾿ εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν, καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἐκπορεύεται,

3. καθαρίζων πάντα τὰ βρώματα;

- - -
(30 views but no replies later...) I just remembered that there is a separate topic for syntax searches, but I guess I have no way to move this post to that forum. If an Admin/Sysop would like to do that, it's fine with me.


Sorry, Rod, I completely missed this thread. Let me play around with this question for awhile. [The first two times I ran the search I constructed, I locked up Accordance! (Chuckle)]
Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer

#4 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:49 AM

Rod, can you share a bit more with me about what you are trying to find? I am trying to construct the simplest search possible, but need a bit more information.

For instance, are you interested in locating the narrator/editor's interpretations of Jesus' speeches?

Or are you trying to find nominative participles that function as adverbs?

Is it important whether such instances are considered "parenthetical"?
Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer

#5 Rod Decker

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 09:56 AM

Rod, can you share a bit more with me about what you are trying to find? I am trying to construct the simplest search possible, but need a bit more information.

For instance, are you interested in locating the narrator/editor's interpretations of Jesus' speeches?

Or are you trying to find nominative participles that function as adverbs?

Is it important whether such instances are considered "parenthetical"?


I'm looking for author's interpretative statements such as seen in Mark's comment inserted in the middle of Jesus' words in the Mark example. In this case it is a participial clause, so that's what I was intending to search for. It is a parenthetical statement, so if that can be used instead of the participle, that's OK, though such features are not marked as clearly in Greek texts as English translations.

Some of these might be debatable, but the Mark example is not since the participle is grammatically excluded from being part of Jesus statement (it's masc, not neut, so must be adverbial modifying λεγει--the 3s subj of which refers to Jesus, rather than ἐκπορεύεται (the assumed subject of which is πᾶν τὸ ἔξωθεν). There's also a resumptive ἔλεγεν δὲ ὅτι following the parenthetical statement.

Is that enough info or do you want more? :) Thanks.

Rod
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#6 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:02 AM

I'm looking for author's interpretative statements such as seen in Mark's comment inserted in the middle of Jesus' words in the Mark example. In this case it is a participial clause, so that's what I was intending to search for. It is a parenthetical statement, so if that can be used instead of the participle, that's OK, though such features are not marked as clearly in Greek texts as English translations.

Some of these might be debatable, but the Mark example is not since the participle is grammatically excluded from being part of Jesus statement (it's masc, not neut, so must be adverbial modifying λεγει--the 3s subj of which refers to Jesus, rather than ἐκπορεύεται (the assumed subject of which is πᾶν τὸ ἔξωθεν). There's also a resumptive ἔλεγεν δὲ ὅτι following the parenthetical statement.

Is that enough info or do you want more? :) Thanks.

Rod



This does help, Rod, thanks.

I'll be working on this week's podcast the rest of the day, but will return to this puzzle over the weekend. Thanks for the challenge!
Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer

#7 Rod Decker

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:47 PM

Looks like everyone got busy on other things--or this is a tougher problem than some...?
Rodney J. Decker, ThD
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#8 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 07:08 PM

So sorry, Rod. I am swamped testing betas—and trying to add iPads to the podcasts. Will have to defer this challenge for a while.
Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
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#9 Rod Decker

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 07:16 PM

If you must... But hopefully this doesn't get forgotten. I doubt that you're the only one in a position to answer...
Rodney J. Decker, ThD
Professor of NT & Greek
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#10 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 08:09 PM

If you must... But hopefully this doesn't get forgotten. I doubt that you're the only one in a position to answer...


Apologies, Rod. It's the end of the term here and everything non-course related has been pushed to the margins. Anyway, the last time I tried to answer one of your Greek questions, I mucked it up. But I've not forgotten it either.
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