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Noet -- Classics Modules, etc.

classics shakespeare aristotle plato philosophy

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#1 Timothy Butler

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 06:42 PM

I just received an announcement from Logos that they are going to have "Logos for the classics" (aka "Noet"). It'll offer translations and original text modules for Aristotle, Shakespeare, Dostoyevsky and more. I was thinking how handy that would be and wondered if Accordance could pick up those same texts and offer them? The philosophers would be really handy when studying theologians such as Aquinas and who wouldn't want a bit of Shakespeare to go along with that? I often use Shakespeare in Sunday school, my courses at the university, etc.

 

Also, notably, the editions look like they are Oxford Critical editions, as opposed to public domain ones. This is huge, opening up these texts for scholarly study instead of just light reading within the Bible software. I'd love to see the Battles translation of Calvin and a modern translation of Aquinas, too, in Accordance along with these other classic texts. 

 

If Logos can get these, it makes me think this isn't a far fetched dream...


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#2 Katzenjammer

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:30 PM

Well, as far as "Classics" in the true sense of the term (Ancient Greek & Latin texts), Logos has had the Perseus texts up for quite some time now - and, they're free.  If they are offering them for free, presumably not a huge amount of work went into getting them into their system.  

 

I wish - I double or triple wish - that Accordance would get these texts on their system so that we can use them; especially in conjunction with the LSJ!    :)   


Edited by Katzenjammer, 30 June 2013 - 07:30 PM.


#3 Timothy Butler

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:53 PM

I wasn't aware of that one. One thing that intrigued me about this new offering from Logos is that it offers tagged translations and original language texts so you can do parallel work similar to how one might do with Biblical texts. This would be helpful, for example, as I'm working on learning Latin over the summer (and into the future!). Shakespeare would presumably be easy to incorporate without licensing, although having a critical text -- like the Oxford or Riverside editions -- would be helpful, since it is nice to have a critical apparatus comparing different source editions...


Edited by Timothy Butler, 30 June 2013 - 07:55 PM.


#4 Dan Francis

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:26 AM

I have no idea what Accordance has planned but I for one would hope they focus more on Biblical/Theological works. We know they are currently working on the Anchor Bible Commentary, and then we also know the New Interpreter's Bible is under Contract and will be coming soon after Anchor. Accordance would have to massively expand their staff to deal with new projects like this and not say it won't happen, just saying it seems unlikely in the near future.

 

-Dan



#5 Rick Bennett

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:41 AM

Obviously without seeing any of this in action it's difficult to offer a full analysis of what this exactly entails, but based on my reading of the website here are some items to consider:
 
The bulk of the texts in the collections are public domain, with the exception of some Oxford editions of philosophical works extending up to 1952.
The Greek morphology of Classical texts is derived from Persues; same for Latin except that it seems to be aided by integrating the work of another web-based program.
The Classical bundles are derived solely of public domain resources, mostly from Perseus, with the addition of LSJ.
 
As for us, we are already planning to incorporate the Classical texts and some of the additional resources from Perseus. They will not be free, but they will be of the same quality as our other resources. Although Perseus has a morphology algorithm in their website and available through their public domain source files, we are very hesitant to adopt it wholesale because it is not based on individual analysis of forms and context. It could provide a good starting point, but it is known to contain inaccuracies. We have been thinking through how best to integrate these resources and maintain our "research-grade" ethos. We realize the value of Classical resources and do plan to integrate them into Accordance in due time.
 
I hope this helps to clarify things.

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#6 Katzenjammer

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:44 AM

That helps a lot Rick.  Yes, Logos relies on the Perseus algorithm, and it has problems.  It seems to me that very little work has been put into them - it's nice to have them, especially for free, but I for one would pay very good money for "research grade" classics texts.  Thanks.  



#7 jca0078

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:07 AM

Thank you Rick for the update. Looking forward to it myself!

#8 Katzenjammer

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:59 AM

Just checking in to see how this is going?  



#9 Katzenjammer

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 01:12 PM

Just checking in to see if there are any updates!    :)



#10 Rick Bennett

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 02:08 PM

We've begun the initial work on this, but still have more to think through for implementation and a lot of texts to process. Our goal it to work towards an initial release with a solid group of tagged texts, then gradually release more over time as they are ready. This will be on ongoing project for some time, but we're committed to doing it with the same scope as I previously mentioned. 

 

Thanks for your patience and support.


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#11 Daniel Semler

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 11:33 AM

Hi Rick,

 

  I know 5 months (and a busy 5 at that) does not perhaps amount to much for such an undertaking as this but I am very interested in this project, specifically in the Greek. Do you have a progress update that you can share on this ?

 

Tx

D


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#12 Enoch

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 07:54 PM

Well, as far as "Classics" in the true sense of the term (Ancient Greek & Latin texts), Logos has had the Perseus texts up for quite some time now - and, they're free.  If they are offering them for free, presumably not a huge amount of work went into getting them into their system.  
 
I wish - I double or triple wish - that Accordance would get these texts on their system so that we can use them; especially in conjunction with the LSJ!    :)


I don't know how the ancient Greek corpus would be free! I had to pay, though I think it was only about $70 plus a Starter basic program. As to Logos, I reluctantly bought into Logos mainly just to get their ancient Greek texts; not only Perseus, but the Loeb classics too; in fact by using the community bid system, I am being able to get the Loebs dirt cheap by bidding prior to release. I have bought every Loeb available from them from Homer to about AD 200; I have my name in the pot on the pre-release plan, & I have bid on everything possible. (I also can get Alford's opinions on the Greek NT via Logos.)

The value of this for NT lexicography is enormous. One is becoming able to locate a Greek vocabulary word (or phrase) in "all" the Greek works extant & readily available from Homer through the Apostolic Fathers (I don't know if they will have Linear B ). The ability to search all this and keyed to LSJ raises lexicon to a higher level.

Edited by Enoch, 01 November 2014 - 07:57 PM.


#13 Enoch

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 08:01 PM

That helps a lot Rick.  Yes, Logos relies on the Perseus algorithm, and it has problems.  It seems to me that very little work has been put into them - it's nice to have them, especially for free, but I for one would pay very good money for "research grade" classics texts.  Thanks.


I didn't realize there were problems with it, Katzen. Perhaps they are chust in case you needed it!
The little searching I have done has not revealed any problems to me -- of course if something is wrong & not detectable, that would not be good.

I would appreciate it if you could tell me precisely what is wrong with Perseus.

Thanks in advance.

#14 Enoch

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 08:09 PM

Obviously without seeing any of this in action it's difficult to offer a full analysis of what this exactly entails, but based on my reading of the website here are some items to consider:
 
The bulk of the texts in the collections are public domain, with the exception of some Oxford editions of philosophical works extending up to 1952.
The Greek morphology of Classical texts is derived from Persues; same for Latin except that it seems to be aided by integrating the work of another web-based program.
The Classical bundles are derived solely of public domain resources, mostly from Perseus, with the addition of LSJ.
 
As for us, we are already planning to incorporate the Classical texts and some of the additional resources from Perseus. They will not be free, but they will be of the same quality as our other resources. Although Perseus has a morphology algorithm in their website and available through their public domain source files, we are very hesitant to adopt it wholesale because it is not based on individual analysis of forms and context. It could provide a good starting point, but it is known to contain inaccuracies. We have been thinking through how best to integrate these resources and maintain our "research-grade" ethos. We realize the value of Classical resources and do plan to integrate them into Accordance in due time.
 
I hope this helps to clarify things.


You might key your Greek texts to Tutti i verbi greci, Marinone & Guala.

51xdc6ofc4L._SL500_SX258_BO1,204,203,200

Come to think of it, I think there is another work like this, which I recall from my U of Minn ddays in the Classics Dept -- Bodley?

Then there is also A CATALOGUE IRREGULAR GREEK VERBS, ALL THE TENSES EXTANT, FORMATION, MEANING, AND USAGE, By PHILIP BUITMANN, LL.D.,

LATE PROFESSOR IN THE UNIVERSITY OF BERLIN, AND LIBRARIAN OF THE
ROYAL LIBRARY.

Edited by Enoch, 01 November 2014 - 08:20 PM.


#15 Enoch

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 08:20 PM

You might key your Greek texts to Tutti i verbi greci, Marinone & Guala.

51xdc6ofc4L._SL500_SX258_BO1,204,203,200

Come to think of it, I think there is another work like this, which I recall from my U of Minn ddays in the Classics Dept -- Baird: a catalogue of greek verbs (1853)?

Then there is also A CATALOGUE OF IRREGULAR GREEK VERBS, ALL THE TENSES EXTANT, FORMATION, MEANING, AND USAGE, By PHILIP BUITMANN or Buttmann, LL.D.,

LATE PROFESSOR IN THE UNIVERSITY OF BERLIN, AND LIBRARIAN OF THE
ROYAL LIBRARY.

Also GREEK VERBS IRREGULAR AND DEFECTIVE THEIR FORMS MEANING AND QUANTITY

Embracing all the Tenses used by the Greek Writers, with References to the
Passages in which they are found

BY
WILLIAM VEITCH, LL.D. EDIN.

Pardon the double post -- I must have accidentally made a reply to my own post when I was trying to edit it.


Edited by Enoch, 01 November 2014 - 11:08 PM.


#16 Pchris

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 08:48 PM

+1 for the ancient Greek and Latin texts! There are so many good ones out there with relevance to the Bible.


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#17 Fabian

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 07:35 AM

DeGruyter Verlag has a lot. Also a TLL Thesaurus Linguae Latinae like the TLG.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


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#18 Rick Bennett

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 10:23 AM

Hi Rick,

 

  I know 5 months (and a busy 5 at that) does not perhaps amount to much for such an undertaking as this but I am very interested in this project, specifically in the Greek. Do you have a progress update that you can share on this ?

 

Tx

D

 

Unfortunately, we've encountered some issues. Long story short, we're still working on this but we have to rethink certain aspects of incorporating the Perseus data into Accordance. I don't have a release date available at this point.

 

For what it's worth, many of the texts in Perseus are in fact the Loeb editions.


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#19 Daniel Semler

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 10:39 AM

Hey Rick,

 

  Thanx for the update.

 

  Understood. I am not quite ready for this material yet and so am able to wait for it for a bit in Acc which in all honesty is where I would prefer to have it if I can.

  Of course once we have this no doubt calls for classical grammars will be renewed :)

  Also glad to hear that many are Loeb's.

 

  So definitely interested and looking forward to the release of this whenever it comes. I am working on Lysias (On the Murder of Eratotosthenes) right now as I'm looking at rhetoric in the NT and trying to get an appreciation for it in classical. But whatever comes I'm sure will be welcomed in many parts.

 

thx

D


Edited by Daniel Semler, 04 November 2014 - 10:06 PM.

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Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop
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#20 Enoch

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 03:52 PM

Why would Accordance want to spend time on Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky, modern classics? Would not the time be better spent on works relevant to Bible study? Of course I have no idea what makes more money in this business. But I would think that it is at worth thought of taking this stance:

1) Let the other guy be the general electronic book seller.
2) We will beat him in having better and more Biblical (& ancient Near East) language resources, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Bible background literature, commentaries, theological works.
3) We will beat him by having better & faster search tools.
4) We will beat him by being more user-friendly & intuitive.

Edited by Enoch, 08 November 2014 - 03:55 PM.

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