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Repeated Words & Phrases (& Bug)


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#1 Randy Steffens Jr

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:21 AM

1) What is the easiest way to find all verses with any sequentially repeated english word, not including articles and conjuctions?

 

2) What is the easiest way to do the same thing with repeated phrases?

 

I can accomplish #1 with a simple construct.  However, in order to include repeated words which are separated by commas, I have to set "within" to 2 words, which floods me with over 1700 hits, most of which are instances of repeated articles & conjunctions.  I need to figure out how to get the the result, minus articles and conjunctions. 

 

Also, I think the construct search I am doing has revealed a bug. It seems to yield extraneous hits for some spelled numbers.  See the attached photo, and notice how "twelve" and "fifteen" are shown to be hits, even though they appear only once.  There are other such instances in the hit list. Can anyone duplicate this?

 

And as for #2, I haven't figured out how to expand this search to look for repetitions of 2 or 3 word phrases. 

 

Thanks for any help!

 

Randy

 

EDIT: There are other extraneous hits in addition to numbers.  Other non-repeated words appear like "Needlework", Ex 39:29 KJV and "brokenhanded" Lev 21:19 KJV.

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Edited by Randy Steffens Jr, 08 October 2013 - 07:28 AM.


#2 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:49 AM

Try dropping the "within" tile and adding a "Inter" Tile with the Char. Tile embedded, like this:


Attached File  Repeated Words.png   764.33KB   19 downloads

 

And, I do see the same bug with numbers in the KJVS (and NRSVS) (see 2 Kings 25:2 in the screenshot, or 2 Chronicles 13:21 in NRSVS) and with certain other words.  e.g., in the NRSVS:  needlework in Ex 39:29, crimson in Lev 14:51, scoundrels in 1 Kings 21:13, etc. 

 

Edit: I don't see the same bugs in NIV11-G/K/


Edited by Lorinda H. M. Hoover, 08 October 2013 - 08:19 AM.

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#3 Randy Steffens Jr

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:01 AM

Thanks Lorinda, very helpful.

 

How can I do the same thing with short 2-3 word phrases? 

 

And how would I modify the search above to find two more widely separated (non-sequentally) repeated words in a verse, still minus articles and conjunctions? 

 

Randy



#4 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:29 AM

If you don't want articles, conjunctions, etc. in between repeated words, this works:


Attached File  Repeated Words More space.jpg   135.03KB   15 downloads

 

I experimented, but didn't find a way to exclude articles, conjunctions, etc. from the word entries in the columns, and without doing so, a huge percentage of the hits are those kind of words.   I'm guessing there's a way, just not one I know.

 

Lorinda


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#5 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:32 AM

In terms of 2 or 3 word phrases, I need more details about what you are looking for.


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#6 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:36 AM

In a Greek (or Hebrew) tagged text it's easier to do what you want:


Attached File  Greek Construct.png   704.02KB   14 downloads

 

Although there's a bit of a bug, here, too.  See Matt 4:24, where δαιμονιζομένους is listed as a hit, even though it only appears once.  This is (I think) because it is "double tagged" because the form can either be middle or passive.

 

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#7 Daniel Semler

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:28 AM

Man ! a grammatically tagged english text would help. But try the attached.

 

Attached File  search3word.jpg   42.5KB   34 downloads

 

Thx

D


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#8 Daniel Semler

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:53 PM

I'm sorry Randy, I was in a rush this morning. My suggestion above needs an INTER between the third and fourth words to make then phrases consecutive. I used the INTER char element Lorinda used above. I'm surprised to see there are 23 such occurrences, 17 in the OT.

 

Removing the INTER there are a far greater number.

 

Thx

D


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#9 Randy Steffens Jr

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 03:50 PM

Thanks Daniel and Lorinda!  This is very, very helpful!  Does anyone know if there is a way to exclude articles, conjunctions, etc. from the word entries in the columns of English construct searches?  

 

Randy



And do I need to do anything further to report the bug above?

 

Thanks!

 

Randy



#10 Daniel Semler

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:02 PM

Hey Randy,

 

  My approach to bugs is that if you have a repro. test case then you're good. If anything else is needed I'm sure they'll ask for it.

 

thx

D


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#11 Daniel Semler

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:40 PM

You can exclude words specifically in the columns by setting the word value field to *@-(the, but, and)    etc. But without a tagged text I don't know a simple way. In the two 3 word phrases search you just need this restriction on one of each pair of AGREEing words. Another thing I note here is that you often see 4 or 5 word phrases highlighted which makes sense because within 4 words there are two consecutive 3 word phrases. But in Gen 3:8 "of the Lord God" God is not highlighted. I do not know why not. It makes me wonder how the search is done - I wonder if the result is the same on a non-key numbered text. I think this may have been my fault with the exclusions but I'm still uncertain exactly how this search is performed.

 

thx

D


Edited by Daniel Semler, 17 October 2013 - 10:52 PM.

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#12 Daniel Semler

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:05 PM

Alright and here is my masterpiece - well that's probably overstating it.

 


Attached File  search3wordWithExclusions.jpg   49.33KB   19 downloads

 

Thx

D


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#13 Randy Steffens Jr

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 09:49 PM

Thanks Daniel, that is excellent.  Amazing work!  Appreciate your help very much!

 

Does anyone know how to do this in Hebrew?

 

Thanks,

 

Randy



#14 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 10:14 PM

Try something like this:

 


Attached File  Hebrew Repeated Phrase.png   634.83KB   15 downloads

 

Note that this allows for any number of words between the two identical phrases.

 

It also may miss some repeated phrases that involve particles (conjuctions, articles, etc.)  If you want to allow for that, some changes would have to be made.

 

I tried this:

 

Attached File  Hebrew Repeated with Suffix.png   667.03KB   9 downloads

 

But it pulls up the same 6 verses, so I'm not sure I constructed it right.

 

Lorinda


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#15 Daniel Semler

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 10:35 PM

Hebrew ? I have to bow out - I am just learning the alphabet.


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#16 Randy Steffens Jr

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:43 AM

Thanks Lorinda, that's most helpful. How can I learn more about finding repeated Hebrew phrases that involve particles (conjuctions, articles, etc as you showed in screenshot #2 above) seeing that the changes you made still pull up the identical 6 verses?

 

Thanks!

 

Randy



#17 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:09 AM

Part of the problem with my second attempt above is that I forgot to change most of the "within" tiles from 1 to 3.  That's why more verses didn't show up.  In Accordance's Hebrew searches, prefixed and suffixed articles prepositions and pronouns count as "words"  So I needed to leave room for prefixes and suffixes as well as other particles (if that's what you wanted). 

 

I tried this today and got more interesting results:

 


Attached File  Repeated Phrases-3.png   535.58KB   0 downloads

 

If you look at the results on the right, you'll see that particles don't get highlighted even if they are identical (for example, the אֶל in the topmost result, Gen 4:8)  This is because I excluded all particles in each of the Lex columns.  I did this because when I didn't have the NOT Particle tile in the Lex columns, I was getting lots of hits where one of the identical words was an article or the like.  You could refine the NOT Particle tile by specifying which type you want to exclude.

 

Similarly, in the INTER tiles, you could specify only certain particles and/or suffix classes that may come in between.

 

Constructs are one of those things that I have to just play with to get them "right."

 

Lorinda


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