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#1 Gordon

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 04:03 PM

How would I search for all examples of any two hebrew words appearing together from the same root.  For example, 

 

דָּרֹ֥שׁ דָּרַ֛שׁ

 

גֻנֹּ֣ב גֻּנַּ֔בְתִּי

 

 

 

 

 


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#2 bkMitchell

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 06:44 PM

I'd try the following:

Attached File  ConsecutiveRoots.png   33.54KB   0 downloads

 

You can also limit the search to case where word repeat in same form (104 hits):

Attached File  Limits.png   34.08KB   0 downloads

 

And, you can find the only place in the Tanach where a word of the same root in the same inflected form repeats three times:

Attached File  three.png   330.15KB   0 downloads

 

Note, none of the searches are prefect (but, that's my fault not accordance) however, these will give you some idea of what Accordance can do and does very well!


Edited by bkMitchell, 13 March 2014 - 07:01 PM.

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

 

 


#3 Joel Brown

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 07:01 PM

Why not simply use a LEX * element, instead of the NOUN VERB PRONOUN list?


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#4 Ken Simpson

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 07:44 PM

So, here is how I tried this one.

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2014-03-14 at 11.43.49 .png   467.54KB   0 downloads

 

First I entered the "root" option, and excluded the ננ roots as it's not a real root - in retrospect I probably should have also added לל as an exclusion...so I added that

 

The add the agree (in root form)

 

and the Within 2 words, as I thought there might be some repeated roots I would want to see that might have an inseparable preposition intervening. (e.g. Gen 1:6) ‏מַ֖יִם לָמָֽיִם

 

So I then added an "INTER" item with the prepositions included (i.e. there can be a word intervening, but it must be a preposition if there is).

 

I found some results where the second word was a particle, so I added the negating term for the particle in the second column. (Could also go in the first - and may be more thorough to do so)

 

Do the search (make sure I had the scope set to "exclude bracketed words) so I did not find the qere/ketiv doubles.

 

And got my results. :-)


Edited by Ken Simpson, 13 March 2014 - 07:55 PM.

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#5 Gordon

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:14 AM

Joel, Can you please be more specific with the details as to how to do that search that you suggest?

 

Thanks to Ken and Silver for their details

 

I should have mentioned also that I am interested in verbs only and not nouns (eg מים מים)


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#6 Ken Simpson

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:53 AM

OK, then you just add the VERB condition to each column. Which means you can remove the particle condition.

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2014-03-14 at 16.35.15 .png   105.53KB   0 downloads

 

The LEX search doesn't shouldn't change anything here.

 

Searching by a root (verb) that agrees with a root (verb) is the same as searching for any lex form that agrees in root with any LEX form

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2014-03-14 at 16.41.10 .png   110.99KB   0 downloads

 

Interestingly they are slightly different. Have to see if I can work out why now... 

 

Addit:

 

A little later...

 

I worked out it was because I forgot to exclude the bracketed words from both searches. Having done that, they both arrive at 544 hits.


Edited by Ken Simpson, 14 March 2014 - 01:19 AM.

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#7 Helen Brown

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:49 AM

I demo this search all the time. Usually I specify a noun and a verb in any direction, that agree in root. It's so simple. Usually there's no need for pronouns.

 

Attached File  Construct1.png   163.96KB   0 downloads

 

However, if you also want to pick up repeated uses of the same part of speech you can use the LEX* as Joel suggested:

 

Attached File  Construct2.png   163.79KB   0 downloads


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#8 Gordon

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:59 AM

Thanks to all for your help!


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#9 Gordon

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 04:44 AM

When I open the new construct page from my main bible HMT W4 (File, new construct, hebrew) I see on the bottom left "this construct is linked with HMT-w4".  I do not see "HEBREW SYNTAX" on the bottom left..

How do I get "HEBREW SYNTAX" to show up?


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#10 Ken Simpson

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:05 AM

Hi gorab, the syntax is an add-on for purchase.

 

You'll find it here


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#11 Gordon

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:09 AM

Ken, 

So I need to purchase the syntax add on module to do the construct search?


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#12 Ken Simpson

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:24 AM

No, everything we did can be done without the syntax modules.

 

More advanced syntactical searches using functional relationships need the syntactic databases installed that come with the Hebrew.syntax module.


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#13 Gordon

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:41 AM

Ken,

OK I see. Thanks.


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#14 Gordon

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:56 AM

Ok...so I tried the search that Helen recommended.  the program indicated that it was searching... but the search never finished and just continued spinning...

I'm using windows 7


Edited by gorab1, 14 March 2014 - 05:57 AM.

‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#15 Ken Simpson

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:39 AM

Hmm..just tried mine on W8.1 with 10.4.0

 

it all worked fine...

 

restart Accordance and try again. Otherwise I will have to ask you to contact Tech about  it I think - unless Helen or Joel have a quick fix in mind

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2014-03-14 at 22.22.29 .png   291.94KB   0 downloadsAttached File  Screen Shot 2014-03-14 at 22.26.19 .png   292.53KB   0 downloads


Edited by Ken Simpson, 14 March 2014 - 07:31 AM.

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#16 Helen Brown

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 07:27 AM

Gorab1, I wish you would use your real name (I can change it for you). Please show me your search on Skype.


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#17 bkMitchell

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 11:31 AM

Ok...so I tried the search that Helen recommended.  the program indicated that it was searching... but the search never finished and just continued spinning...

I'm using windows 7

 I am also using Windows 7 and:

the first search that Helen posted takes less than a sec

the second search she posted takes a a minute or two for my computer to run.


חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

 

 


#18 bkMitchell

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 11:57 AM

Thank you Gorab1 for your questions I find your recent thread/post to very interesting and helpful;. In future, however, you may want to start new post in the Original Languages discussion section of the forums: http://www.accordanc...php?showforum=5 . That will help others who may have the same questions find the answers and discussion easier.

 

Thank Mr. Joel Brown, Mr. Ken Simpson, and Mrs. Helen Brown for chiming in on this thread! This discussion has been very enlighting and enjoyable!!!


חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

 

 


#19 Ken Simpson

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 07:27 PM

Thank you for your very thankful comments, and your contributions Mr Brian Mitchell!

 

Now to find a way to come to Japan to meet you?  :P

 

(Yeah, yeah I know - just jump on a plane Ken!)


Regards
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#20 bkMitchell

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 07:08 AM

Now to find a way to come to Japan to meet you?  :P

 

I'll be waiting and looking forward to that!


חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

 

 





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