Jump to content


Photo

Translation Alternative Wanted

translation text module

  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

#21 Enoch

Enoch

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 532 posts

Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:03 PM

"The man who through faith is just and upright shall live by faith shall live and shall live by faith."

 

Vot der Dumboozle!  I can't believe that.  (No pun intended.)

 

Here is what my Amp amplifies:  " The man who through faith is just and upright shall live and shall live by faith."

 

Mine has only 2 "shall lives."  

 

I don't see any attempt to do an English synonym study here.  Both just and upright are in BDAG for δίκαιος.  I see a translation that I don't like at first (but which IMHO is possible): "through faith is just."    Then it looks like the translator is trying to have it both ways (which I don't think is possible).  Is it that one who is just lives by faith, or that one who is just by faith lives?  

 

Then punctuation is required with repetition of the subject pronoun:  The man who through faith is just and upright, shall live; and he shall live by faith."

 

I have seen the criticism that the Amp tries to have it both ways when that is impossible in a given passage.  But I have not yet seen any proof that the Amp errs by doing an English thesaurus on a Greek word (instead of listing a string of possible Greek meanings).


Edited by Enoch, 28 March 2014 - 11:44 AM.

  • Kevin Soars likes this

#22 Timothy Jenney

Timothy Jenney

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 1,636 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:sunny Winter Haven, FL
  • Interests:a good cup of coffee, sci-fi, playing bass, listing to jazz and the blues, camping, fishing and the great outdoors
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:25 PM

Oops. you are correct. Enoch. I incorrectly added another "shall live."

 

However, my point was not with regard to "just." "Upright" is a perfectly fine alternate translation for it.

 

My concern was with the rendering of "pistis." There's no evidence that the translator was aware of its other meaning: "faithfulness" or "trustworthiness."


  • Kevin Soars likes this

Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer

 

Mac: Early 2011 17" MBP (8,3), 2.3 GHz Quad core, 16 GB RAM, Mercury 6G 480 SSD + 1.5 TB HD, OSX 10.10, Yosemite

iPhone 6 plus 64 GB iOS 8.1


#23 Gordon

Gordon

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 285 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 27 March 2014 - 04:29 PM

Any book to which Prof Marc Brettler of Brandeis University has his name attached  is guaranteed to be of the highest caliber and superior scholarship.  Both volumes of excellent.


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#24 Enoch

Enoch

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 532 posts

Posted 28 March 2014 - 11:53 AM

Well, Tim; perhaps she didn't want to overthrown the entire Reformation with a translation!  IMHO, this translator appears to go out of the way to emphasize standard Evangelical theology.  Now had she written, "The man who through faithfulness is just," she would have added a justification-by-works interpretation, contrary to the Pauline theology.

 

Gorab1:

 

Are you saying that the Amp was puffed by Marc Brettler?  Is Brandeis U a hotbed of fundamentalism from which the Lockman Foundation would want a blessing?

 

"Both volumes"?  To what two volumes do you refer?



#25 Helen Brown

Helen Brown

    Mithril

  • Admin
  • 8,420 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:heart in Israel
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 28 March 2014 - 02:41 PM

Enoch, you have strayed from our guidelines by referring negatively to the differing views discussed in this topic. Of course each translation is an interpretation to some extents, and reflects the views of the translators/editors/publishers. On our forums all views are welcome. Please do not disparage either the posters on the forum, nor the authors and editors of the works we offer. You can state a disagreement, but respectfully and cordially, please!

 

The two volumes that Brettler edited are the The Jewish Study Bible and The Annotated Jewish New Testament. He is a most respected and distinguished scholar and a long-time supporter of Accordance. Brandeis is a Jewish University of high-standing and scholarship, and we greatly appreciate his and their contributions to Biblical scholarship.

 

Yes, the Amplified Bible and the NASB (Lockman) were published by evangelical scholars, and as I said, each work reflects certain views, but that does not make them less valuable. On the contrary, the ability to consult works from different perspectives can only deepen our understanding of the text.

 

Again, issues of doctrine are beyond the scope of this forum, and we request that everyone honor the guidelines.


  • Michael J. Bolesta, Julie Falling, Kevin Soars and 2 others like this
Helen Brown
OakTree Software

#26 Gordon

Gordon

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 285 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 30 March 2014 - 09:49 AM

Gold,

I am referring to the Jewish Study Bible and to the Annotated Jewish New Testament (as Helen has pointed out).  Brettler has nothing to do with the Amplified.

Brandeis U has nothing to do with any fundamentalist movement,neither Christian nor Jewish.  It is a university with a wonderful Judaic department whose scholars are second to none.


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#27 Obed Benyah

Obed Benyah

    Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Montana
  • Accordance Version:10.x

Posted 30 March 2014 - 11:13 AM

Gorab1:

 

Thank you for your input on The Jewish Study Bible and the Annotated New Testament. I did manage to find some on-line interior pages for both and was able to get a flavor of what they are - and what they are not. What I really desire is a version of the text itself that reflects the Hebraic understandings of the words. Both of these works seem to lean toward a more modernistic approach to the translations, not toward the older perspectives.

 

I owe Helen Brown a deep note of thanks in this regard also, for reminding me of The Schocken Bible by Dr. Everett Fox. I had set it aside and hadn't looked at it for a while. My renewed acquaintance with it is proving MOST valuable. He has done very much what I desire to see in a text. He manages to portray in English much of the character of the Hebrew language. His notes are most valuable. And his concept of breaking the text into "breathing parts" is profound in its impact, especially when read out loud as he recommends. My only disappointment is in the lengthy time involved in completing the entire Scriptures in this manner.

 

Appreciating your kindness,

Obed


  • Kevin Soars likes this

He has explained to you, oh man, what is good, and what YAHWEH requires of you: 

- Do justice, 

- Love mercy, and 

- Walk humbly with your Elohim.

                                                  Micah 6.8


#28 Dan Francis

Dan Francis

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 699 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Alberta, Canada
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 30 March 2014 - 01:04 PM

The JPS version and the complete Jewish Bibles are likely going to be your best bets, aside from the two torah versions mentioned (at least I think the modern Jewish commentary was mentioned).

 

-Dan



#29 Enoch

Enoch

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 532 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:14 PM

OakTree Software, Inc.

 

Enoch, you have strayed from our guidelines by referring negatively to the differing views discussed in this topic. Of course each translation is an interpretation to some extents, and reflects the views of the translators/editors/publishers. On our forums all views are welcome. Please do not disparage either the posters on the forum, nor the authors and editors of the works we offer. You can state a disagreement, but respectfully and cordially, please!

 

The two volumes that Brettler edited are the The Jewish Study Bible and The Annotated Jewish New Testament. He is a most respected and distinguished scholar and a long-time supporter of Accordance. Brandeis is a Jewish University of high-standing and scholarship, and we greatly appreciate his and their contributions to Biblical scholarship.

 

Yes, the Amplified Bible and the NASB (Lockman) were published by evangelical scholars, and as I said, each work reflects certain views, but that does not make them less valuable. On the contrary, the ability to consult works from different perspectives can only deepen our understanding of the text.

 

Again, issues of doctrine are beyond the scope of this forum, and we request that everyone honor the guidelines.

Well Helen, I see that I am going to have to be a lot more careful about what I post here.   But thanks for telling me that "On our forums all views are welcome," which means that my views are welcome.

 

However, I don't believe I disparaged a poster, but I did question the disparagement of the Amplified Bible by someone else. When I read a post that seemed to indicate that a Brandeis professor had praised a Lockman Foundation product (like the Amp), I thought that was strange and should be addressed.  This whole thread concerns obtaining the best translation of the Bible, an issue which cannot really be addressed honestly without doctrinal issues being raised.  If one buys the Amplified, it is objective fact to note that it is evangelical.  And how are you going to allow a thread like this and forbid anything negative to be said about a product you sell (a particular translation)?  And BTW, this thread began with a general disparagement of translations.

 

But as I say, I see I will have to be much more careful what I post here; apparently I was under the wrong impression as to the nature of OakTree Software, Inc. (thinking it was a Christian company).  I did not realize that any of my posts above would step on your toes, which certainly was not my purpose.


Edited by Enoch, 05 April 2014 - 09:20 PM.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: translation, text, module

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users