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#1 Gordon

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:12 AM

Windows 10.4.1   using HMT-W4

 

I copied and pasted in the search window the hebrew words: הארץ ומלאה from Psalm 24:1 but the verse from Isaiah 34:1 which contains these words as well did not show up when I did the search--only Psalm 24:1 showed up.

 

So I just typed in the two hebrew words and did the search and came up with Lev 19:29 and Isaiah 34:1

but no Psalm 24:1 !

 

So I copied and pasted in the two hebrew words from Isaiah 34:1 and did the search but Psalm 24:1 did not come up !

 

What am I doing wrong??


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#2 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 06:26 AM

On my Mac, if I highlight הָאָרֶץ וּמְלוֹאָהּ from Psalm 24:1, then right click/control-click/two finger click on the selection and choose Search In>HMT-4, both Psalm 24:1 and Isaiah 34:1 show up.  The same thing happens if I select the phrase and amplify to the HMT-4 from the toolbar or the library.

 

When I copied הָאָרֶץ וּמְלוֹאָהּ from Psalm 24:1 and pasted it in a new search window, I got a warning that the text could not be found(!) and was offered the opportunity to do a "literal search" Doing so finds only Psalm 24:1.

 

I'll check on the Windows machine I use later today, but copying and pasting Hebrew is often tricky.  For this search, selecting and amplifying is a more reliable method.

 

Lorinda


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#3 Gordon

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 06:42 AM

Lorinda,

Thank you very much.  I tried your method on windows and it worked perfectly bringing up the two results that I was looking for.

 

And your are correct regarding the "literal search" as well on windows, which brings up only one result !  Why, I wonder?

 

Can someone out there explain "literal search"?

 

And why is "copy/paste" a text less reliable??

 

In any event, I will use your method in the future.

 

 

 

Thanks


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#4 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:12 AM

From the Accordance Help:

 

 

Literal searches in Hebrew allow for direct entry of text from the Hebrew Bible without knowing the lemma or having to distinguish the prefixes and suffixes of words. The type of search is selected via the Search Options... pop-up menu in the Argument Entry box.

The Hebrew default search is a Grammatical Search and assumes the entry is a lemma (lexical form) and find all the words derived from it, ignoring the vowel pointing (unless the equal sign is added). Prefixes and suffixes are treated as separate words. Grammatical searches can be performed for one or a combination of Lemmas, Inflected Forms, Roots, or specific grammatical Tags....
Literal Searches look for the letters and words as entered and finds matching inflected forms with and without additional prefixes and suffixes. Therefore, prefixes and suffixes do not need to be separated (they will be found if part of the entry, but ignored if not part of the entry).

 

I wasn't clear on the distinction myself, but found this helpful. 

 

And, looking more closely at the two verses, I can see why a literal search doesn't find both.  The spelling is different.

 

Psalm 24:1 הָאָרֶץ וּמְלוֹאָהּ

Isaiah 35:1 הָאָרֶץ וּמְלֹאָהּ

 

Note the vav between the lamed and the aleph in וּמְלוֹאָהּ (Psalm 24:1)

 

So a grammatical search finds both, but a literal search does not.

 

Because of the nature of prefixes and suffixes in Hebrew,  plene vs. nonplene spellings, and right-to-left issues, typing or copying and pasting Hebrew for grammatical searches is tricky. 

 

Here's a question for the Accordance folks, though.  I just tried "copy as lemma" in Psalm 24:1, and then pasting that result into a search window.  Only Isaiah 34:1 is found.  Psalm 24:1, from which the phrase is copied, does not.


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#5 Gordon

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:25 AM

Lorinda,

Thanks again.

 

Very astute observation.  I missed that VAV plene and non plene difference in the spelling also!

 

Your last question is a good one.  Hopefully someone from Accordance will answer.


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#6 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:02 AM

It is a good question. I looked at it this morning and couldn't figure it out either.

 

Someone more knowledgeable than I will have to weigh in here. I look forward to reading the answer.


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#7 Helen Brown

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:27 AM

When I copy and paste the lemmas from Psa 24:1 I also get Lev 19:29. That verse has no Suffix on the word, and my copy and paste as lemma is not picking up the suffix at all. I cannot reproduce Lorinda's last observation.


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#8 Gordon

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:41 AM

When I copy and paste the lemmas from Ps 24:1,  I get two results:  Isaiah 34:1 and Psalm 24:1  but not Lev 19:29


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#9 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 03:31 PM

Hmm...I repeated the Copy as Lemmas a couple of times in the HMT-W4 with the same result (i.e. only Psalm 24:1) on my Mac at home.  It did not happen with the other Hebrew text I tried (now I don't remember for sure which one).  But I can't reproduce it in the HMT-W4 on my windows installation at work.  I'll try again at home tonight and see if I can repeat it.

 

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#10 David Lang

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 04:27 PM

I often demonstrate the perils of searching for copied and pasted Hebrew in our training seminars. Here are some important things to understand:

 

1. Accordance defaults to searching for lemmas (the dictionary form of each word) rather than inflected forms (the words as they appear in the text). When you copy Hebrew text and then paste it into the search entry box, you are pasting in inflected forms rather than lexical forms. When you try to perform the search, any inflected form you pasted in which does not also happen to be a lexical form will trigger an error message. To search for inflected forms, you have to enclose the search argument in quotation marks.

 

2. Grammatical searches treat prefixed and suffixed lexemes in Hebrew as separate words, which means they must be separated by a space in the search entry box. Accordance doesn't recognize בראשׁית as a valid lexical form, but it does recognize ב ראשׁית as two valid lexical forms.

 

3. Literal searches do not treat prefixes and suffixes as separate words, and do not look for lexical forms. Thus, a literal search for בראשׁית will find that combination of letters.

 

4. Using Copy as Lemmas copies the lemmas of all the selected words, but since suffixes don't technically have a lemma, they do not get included.

 

5. For all those reasons, it is best to select Hebrew text and choose the first option in the Amplify menu or right-click and choose Search For Lemmas. That way, Accordance formats the search properly and you don't have to worry about it.

 

Hope that helps explain what's going on.


Edited by David Lang, 09 April 2014 - 04:28 PM.

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#11 bkMitchell

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:39 PM

Thank You David The above post was very helpful!


חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

 

 


#12 Kevin Soars

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 02:27 PM

Likewise! Thank you, David.


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#13 Martin Zhang

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 03:24 PM

seems we should be cautious even when we: highlight, and right click, search for lemma.
In this case, if we highlight הארץ ומלאה and search for lemma, Accordance will not find Lev 19:29. The reason is that Accordance also includes the suffix ה after מלא. but in Lev 19:29, the ה is a feminine ending rather than a pronominal suffix. Therefore, Lev 19:29 is excluded in the search.
If you delete the phrase [suffix], and launch a new search, you will find Lev 19:29. I think maybe the best will is to do a Hebrew Construct search (I'm still exploring the function. I saw there is a demonstration by Dr. J.)

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#14 bkMitchell

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 06:26 PM

... I think maybe the best will is to do a Hebrew Construct search (I'm still exploring the function. I saw there is a demonstration by Dr. J.)

I agree the Hebrew Construct search is great And super easy to set up, too! Try this search out:

Attached File  april30thsearch.png   25.16KB   1 downloads


Edited by bkMitchell, 29 April 2014 - 06:28 PM.

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

 

 





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