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#1 Harvey

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:08 AM

I am trying to do a search that will, I suspect, require a couple of steps; but I could use help just getting started.

 

I would like to identify all nouns in the pattern ת?ו?ה, and then identify which of them involve roots that do not appear in hif'il (for example, תנובה). I am stumped just identifying nouns in this pattern, let alone narrowing the search to the roots in question. I would appreciate help.

 

Thanks,

Harvey



#2 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 11:57 AM

Here's the first step in your search: [NOUN] @ת?ו?ה

 

Accordance's Analysis shows 22 different forms:

        בוא)    תְּבוּאָה) produce, harvest = 43
        ‏(בין)    תְּבוּנָה    understanding = 42
        ‏(בוס)    תְּבוּסָה    destruction = 1
        ‏(כון)    תְּכוּנָה    structure, treasure, dwelling = 3
        ‏(ננ)    תְּמוּנָה    form = 10
        ‏(מור)    תְּמוּרָה    exchange = 6
        ‏(מות)    תְּמוּתָה    death = 2
        ‏(נוא)    תְּנוּאָה    pretext, opposition = 2
        ‏(נוב)    תְּנוּבָה    fruit, produce = 5
        ‏(נום)    תְּנוּמָה    slumber = 5
        ‏(נוף)    תְּנוּפָה    wave offering = 30
        ‏(עוד)    תְּעוּדָה    testimony = 3
        ‏(פוץ)    תְּפוֹצָה    dispersion = 1
        ‏(קום)    תְּקוּמָה    stand = 1
        ‏(קוף)    תְּקוּפָה    turn, circuit = 4
        ‏(רום)    תְּרוּמָה    offering, contribution = 76
        ‏(רוע)    תְּרוּעָה    shout = 36
        ‏(רפא)    תְּרוּפָה    healing = 1
        ‏(שׁוב)    תְּשׁוּבָה    return = 8
        ‏(ישׁע)    תְּשׁוּעָה    salvation = 34
        ‏(שׁוק)    תְּשׁוּקָה    desire = 3
        שׁור)    תְּשׁוּרָה)   gift = 1


Edited by Timothy Jenney, 12 June 2014 - 12:06 PM.

Blessings,
"Dr. J"

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#3 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 12:05 PM

The only way I can think of  to search for the roots that do not appear in the Hif'il is to take them from the list above, then insert them, one by one, into the following search string (where each root replaces "?"):  [VERB -hifil] @([and so on] ,?+ ,?+ ,?+)

 

Can anyone think of an easier way?


Edited by Timothy Jenney, 12 June 2014 - 12:07 PM.

Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer

 

Mac: Early 2011 17" MBP (8,3), 2.3 GHz Quad core, 16 GB RAM, Mercury 6G 480 SSD + 1.5 TB HD, OSX 10.10, Yosemite

iPhone 6 plus 64 GB iOS 8.1


#4 Harvey

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 01:00 PM

Thank you!



#5 Harvey

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 01:32 PM

I tried replicating this with a Hebrew Construct. When I clicked on Inflect, and inserted ת?ו?ה after the "=" sign, I got no results. But when I erased the "=" sign, the search worked. Seems very strange. What should I learn from this?



#6 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 02:23 PM

The equals sign (=) means an exact search, e.g. one that matches capitalization, final forms, breathing marks, accents, vowel pointing [in Hebrew]. I suppose it may even include cantillation marks, though someone more expert than me may need to weigh in on that.

 

Your search had no vowel pointing. Since the Hebrew text includes pointing, I'm guessing Accordance found no examples without pointing.


Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer

 

Mac: Early 2011 17" MBP (8,3), 2.3 GHz Quad core, 16 GB RAM, Mercury 6G 480 SSD + 1.5 TB HD, OSX 10.10, Yosemite

iPhone 6 plus 64 GB iOS 8.1


#7 Helen Brown

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 05:35 AM

Sorry, but searching on -Hifil will find all forms except hifil, it will NOT isolate lemmas that do NOT appear in Hifil. However, there is a way to do this. Here are my steps:

  1. Search on all words with this pattern using ת?ו?ה.
  2. Open the Analytics: Analysis to see the list of root words found
  3. Massage this list in or outside Accordance to get a list of roots separated by commas enclosed in parentheses (this isn't easy as dirctions are mixed in Accordance, I ended up typing this):   (+בוא, +בין, +בוס). Do not include the root ננ as it just signifies "not known" as לל does "loan word."
  4. Open a new tab and paste that string followed by @ [VERB]. This finds all the verbs from those roots. (Please reverse the tag and the @.)
  5. Duplicate the tab and change it to [VERB hifil] to find the hifil forms.
  6. Add a fourth tab for HMT-W4 and search for ‏ ‎[HITS HMT-W4 2]‏ ‎<NOT>‏ ‎[HITS HMT-W4 3]‏. (Please reverse the two commands.) This finds all the lemmas from the second tab that did not occur in the third tab.

Here is what these tabs look like separated into zones, but not searching all the roots so it didn't find any.

 

Attached File  Roots.png   526.9KB   1 downloads

 


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#8 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:05 AM

Ooo, that's nice, Helen. Thanks for the corrections.

 

Wish we had Siri in Accordance. Then we could just tell her what we wanted and have her set it up.


Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer

 

Mac: Early 2011 17" MBP (8,3), 2.3 GHz Quad core, 16 GB RAM, Mercury 6G 480 SSD + 1.5 TB HD, OSX 10.10, Yosemite

iPhone 6 plus 64 GB iOS 8.1


#9 Harvey

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:49 AM

I did the same search manually (using a list of ת?ו?ה nouns and checking them against a list of hollow roots [as the roots of most such nouns are] appearing in hifil), and I found some examples of nouns with roots that do not occur in hifil, including תנובה, תקופה, תשוקה, תנומה, תבוסה and תשורה. Some of these have roots that do not appear as verbs in any conjugation, but several of them do; so it is interesting that they were not produced by Helen's search.


Edited by Harvey, 13 June 2014 - 10:49 AM.


#10 Helen Brown

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:11 PM

Yes, my search looked only for verbs. You can find all lemmas that don't have a Verb-hifil but that would then include all the nouns. However, with the same priciples you can craete a search for all lemmas that don't have a verb and add them to my list.


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#11 Harvey

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 02:33 PM

But some of these nouns---e.g., תנובה---do have roots that appear as verbs in conjugations other than hifil.



#12 Helen Brown

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 02:55 PM

Some of which nouns? What is the search to which you are referring?


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#13 Harvey

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:03 AM

I am trying to do a search that will, I suspect, require a couple of steps; but I could use help just getting started.

 

I would like to identify all nouns in the pattern ת?ו?ה, and then identify which of them involve roots that do not appear in hif'il (for example, תנובה). I am stumped just identifying nouns in this pattern, let alone narrowing the search to the roots in question. I would appreciate help.

 

Thanks,

Harvey



#14 Helen Brown

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:17 AM

We seem to be going in circles. We have explained how to find those that do not appear as verbs, and those that appear as verbs but never in hifil. You would then combine the two lists.

 

Perhaps we need to set up a screenshare session to demonstrate these searches to you.


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