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#1 davidmedina

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:59 AM

Once in a while while using Accordance I become a little frustrated with how the software is designed to work, specifically the tags. It feels like it is assuming that I have enough Biblical knowledge to know what it behaves like it does. And because I don't have that knowledge that seems to require I find myself jumping around trying to find what I am looking for and becoming frustrated wondering if I am getting the right answers. 

 

So I need help understanding the following.

 

I am studying 1 Peter. I am looking at 1 Peter 1:1-2.  I am trying to dig a bit on certain words. For example, "elect" (eklektos).

 

The first thing I did was to see where else that word is used. So I did a search for the word using the NKJV. I got 20 hits and it shows it in 1 Peter 1:2. And because I mainly use the ESV I remember that the ESV has it in 1 Peter 1:1. No problem. I was aware of that because I read and compared it in other translations.

 

But here is where the problems come and has to do with the Instant Display information and how, to me, it feels like inconsistencies that confuses me and limits me as to what Bible I can choose as my main study Bible. 

 

I am using all tagged Bibles.

 

 

If I open 1 peter 1:1-2 in the ESVS and hover over the word "elect" on 1 Peter 1:1 I get the corresponding ID information fine. 

 

Now, If I open 1 peter 1:1-2 in the NRSVS and hover over the word "elect" render chosen on the NRSV which is now on 1 Peter 1:2 I get NOTHING on the NRSV. 

 

If I use the KJVS or the NKJVS  (Elect is on 1:2) I only get the Greek word and strong number but nothing else. 

 

If I use Mounce  (Elect is on 1:2) I get nothing at all. 

 

In the NASBS, NIVS or the HCSB  I get all the information.

 

 

I suppose that there are some technical scholarly reasons for the way it is done, but for non-scholars non-professionals like me it is extremely confusing because I cannot find information for a word unless I start jumping from Bible to Bible until I get the "right" response. 

 

Don't you think it would be better if I get the right information regardless of where the translators choose to place the word in the English translation? 

 

Honestly, this frustrates me so much that every time I open Accordance to study and this happens I just close the program and open Logos. 

 

What am I doing wrong? What is the proper way to study with Accordance? Is this an oversight? or because some Bibles where tagged later? Why does it seems like Accordance favor some Bibles over others when it comes to the way they are tagged?

 

I want to clarify that this is not a rant but an honest frustration trying to study God's Word using Accordance. This is important to me because I do like Accordance and I want to enjoy using it. But I just don't understand why this happens and it is becoming an impediment that keeps me from enjoying using Accordance for Bible Study.

 

Thanks


"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Rom. 12:2
 
Blog: The Renewed Mind.

#2 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:54 AM

Hi, David!

 

I am so sorry you are frustrated. Let me assure you that you are not doing anything wrong. There are definitely a couple of odd problems here— and I hope this sort of thing does not happen too often.

 

First, Accordance restricts cross-highlighting and certain other matching features to words in the same verse, lest it generates too many "false positives" when a word appears repeatedly in a passage. That hurt us in this case, because some of these translations put the English equivalent for eklektos in v. 2 instead of v. 1. [Obviously, we have no control over the various translations; their editorial boards decide how the text will read. This particular difference appeared because these boards exegeted the text slightly differently from each other. ]

 

Second, frankly am not sure why "who have been chosen" (v. 2) is not tagged in the NRSV, nor "elect" (v. 2) in Mounce-NT. I suggest you  report both as errors. That correction would give you the key number information in both texts, though Accordance will still not be able to link it with the original Greek word, since the latter is in a different verse. [The result will be what you are currently getting with the KJVS and the NKJVS.]

 

David, I suspect your desire to study the Bible is going to force you to learn Greek sooner or later. Working directly with the original text eliminates a lot of the inconsistencies introduced by different English translations. Trust me, it will be worth the initial effort!


Edited by Timothy Jenney, 14 July 2014 - 10:55 AM.

Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer

 

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#3 Rick Bennett

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:20 AM

I agree with Tim that you just found a tricky verse. I've made the corrections to NRSVS and Mounce-NT for the missing tags (updates pending), so that will help a bit.

 

Aside from the variations in tagging and versification (that have honestly made this more complex than it really is), I also wonder what your workflow looks like. Maybe you could post a short screen cast (you can use Quicktime on Mac) of how you work through a text. Once others see that maybe they can make recommendations on how to be more efficient in your studying.


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#4 davidmedina

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:05 PM

Thanks Dr. J and Rick. 

 

Rick do you still need for me to report it? 

 

Dr. J. I agree with your suggestion about learning Greek. I have been trying to learn some but I have not been able to be consistent because of lack of time to do it.

 

Question. In relation to the cross-highliting restriction Dr. J mentioned, is there a critical reason why those restrictions are in place? It seems to be that I should be able to see a definition for a word regardless where the translator chose to place it. 

 

Rick I am learning to go through the text so I am open to suggestion and guidance. What I have been doing is learning to use the inductive style of Bible Study and following the Dr. Fee's book that Dr. J suggested in his last podcast.

 

I read through 1 Peter in several translations. And after I did all my introductory work, I started on the first two verses. Again, I read it in 7 different translation (as Dr. Fee suggest) and compared the two verses in different translations by adding them in parallel (by the way, I noticed something minor, on each Bible I checked, the reference to the verse was 1 Peter 1:2 except in the NIV which is simply 2). 

 

It got my attention certain words in those two verses and I decided to dig deeper. One of them was "Elect". 

 

At the time I had the NRSV opened so I hovered over the word chosen and wanted to see what was the greek word used. And it was when I saw that there was no information.

 

I am completely open to suggestion as to effective study workflows. :)

 

Maybe you can suggest some of the Dr. J podacast I could review again or maybe it could be a good subject for a webminar directed to users like me that do not have seminary or any kind of formal training in how we can get the most of Accordance. I really enjoying the recent podcasts because they are very practical. So I would suggest one going through an actual study.  I would suggest 1 Peter 1:1-2 because I think it has plenty to dig through all the different types of resources in Accordance. 

 

Thanks guys.


"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Rom. 12:2
 
Blog: The Renewed Mind.

#5 Rick Bennett

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:11 PM

I am not so much questioning your exegetical method, as your workflow in Accordance. I still think it might be helpful to see how you're setting up your workspace, performing searches, etc. 

 

No need to report the tagging issues, they have already been corrected.

 

Restricting the cross-highlighting to a single verse makes it more accurate in like 98% of cases. I think I've only run into a handful of verses where translation committees make decisions like this.


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#6 davidmedina

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:28 PM

Got it. I'll try to make sometime tonight and do some recording. Any specifics you would like me to show?


"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Rom. 12:2
 
Blog: The Renewed Mind.

#7 Rick Bennett

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:29 PM

Got it. I'll try to make sometime tonight and do some recording. Any specifics you would like me to show?

 

Any example of your workflow is fine, I image; why not re-enact the example above from 1Pet. 1.1-2, eklektos


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#8 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 01:16 PM

Glad we were able to help, David, and many thanks to Rick for such a quick correction to these two texts.

 

I'm pleased you've found the Bible study podcasts so helpful. They've been popular enough, we intend to produce more of them. We're also in the process of providing other kinds of training for our users. Stay tuned.

 

David, I do want to commend you for your your tenacity. You found an issue and wrestled with it until you found a solution—or at least asked for help from others for it. That is exactly the right attitude for studying the Bible. It's also the right attitude for studying Greek...


Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer

 

Mac: Early 2011 17" MBP (8,3), 2.3 GHz Quad core, 16 GB RAM, Mercury 6G 480 SSD + 1.5 TB HD, OSX 10.10, Yosemite

iPhone 6 plus 64 GB iOS 8.1


#9 davidmedina

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:10 PM

Thanks Dr. J. :)


"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Rom. 12:2
 
Blog: The Renewed Mind.




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