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Questions regarding Greek Texts


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#1 Ekklesia Foundation

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 04:17 AM

Have placed the 6.6 upgrade, thank you.
There were nil issues of that process. Which was good.

However these QUESTIONS as to Greek Texts

The LLX gives wonderful detail for each Greek word, however the GNT-NA do not.
Why is this?

Will there be other Greek NT available? I write this as are issues with some words in the ancient texts, for which the Greek Orthodox have confirmed my concerns.

This holds nil criticism of Accordance, just wish to see more GREEK available.

++ On another note best wishes on your display and fellowship with the Chinese in Taiwan this week.This language I used to speak fairly fluent when in my younger years. We have a site up in simple chinese on the 'Faith Hope and Love these three'. The man whom helped me translate this, was converted and last year in freak accident has gone to be with our Lord.

http://EkklesiaGold.org


To God be praised
Rev M W Durrance -director
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#2 Helen Brown

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 06:17 AM

The GNT-NA is an UNTAGGED Greek text. We have several tagged Greek NT texts:
  • GNT-T is the current tagged NA27
  • GNT-TR is the tagged Textus Receptus
  • GNT-TIS is the tagged Tischendorf text (to go with the new Apparatus)
  • GNT-WH is the Westcott anf Hort tagged text
  • GNT is the original tagged GRAMCORD GNT (no longer available with Accordance, but old copies work)
  • GNT-TRS is the Textus Receptus with Strong's numbers/lemmas but no grammatical tags
We also have tagged Apostolic Fathers and Pseudepigrapha in Greek, as well as the LXX you mention.

I think you just need to make sure you are using the correct text, you may need to buy it. :)

You can use Edit Modules in the Edit menus to organize the texts and bring the ones you need to the top of the menus.
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#3 Ekklesia Foundation

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 09:50 AM

[*]GNT-TR is the tagged Textus Receptus
[*]GNT-TIS is the tagged Tischendorf text (to go with the new Apparatus)
[*]GNT-WH is the Westcott anf Hort tagged text

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Thank you for reply.

Any chance an ancient text which predates the Western scripts?

Byzantine Text is Eastern and the basis of the Greek Orthodox remained till mid 15th century. As a mixed race/culture and early years in Judaism, have a real problem with the both the Textus Receptus and Nestle. i have not seen the Tischendorf.

Will you have Byzantine based Orthodox Greek Text? [with tagging]
Majority Text is this possible now to download and phone in to pay for the unlock code?

My last stay inside wonderful Greece revealed vast differences as compared to the Nestle and the TR. However not on software and besides it may be an edition to your Accordance platform. Perhaps a workshop/stall in Athens one year would result?

All saying here have had 'hands on' and direct 'eye contact' with ancient Greek. Several areas
in modern texts effect changed words.

Your LXX on software has been a REAL blessing. The LXX in hardback are heavy!

Edited by Ekklesia Foundation, 19 June 2005 - 10:39 AM.

Rev M W Durrance -director
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#4 Ekklesia Foundation

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 11:40 AM

The GNT-NA is an UNTAGGED Greek text. We have several tagged Greek NT texts:

  • GNT-T is the current tagged NA27
  • GNT-TR is the tagged Textus Receptus
  • GNT-TIS is the tagged Tischendorf text (to go with the new Apparatus)
  • GNT-WH is the Westcott anf Hort tagged text
  • GNT is the original tagged GRAMCORD GNT (no longer available with Accordance, but old copies work)
  • GNT-TRS is the Textus Receptus with Strong's numbers/lemmas but no grammatical tags
We also have tagged Apostolic Fathers and Pseudepigrapha in Greek, as well as the LXX you mention.


Have bdeen back and forth in correspondence with in GREECE;
to make sure my memory has not slipped.

The Greek NA is alright as WHY use versions which are NOT based on the
Byzantine period. The versions you have listed above ARE NOT based on ORTHODOX
but rather Roman Catholic and Protestant edtions of the Greek NT;
just as the LXX editions you have available.

Not intending to offend anyone, but for the sake of scholarship. Would like to
see the LXX Septugaint from the Byzantine era as well. These were
NOT affected by the Dark Ages.

See you do have Byzantine/Majority Text though untagged that may be useful
however can you arrange this as a lone download and payment over the phone
for the unlock code?

Tyndale used a Byzantine text for his Greek source. It took me forty years to place my hands
on a more orignal copy of the Tyndale New Testament, [have his OT ork as well ] and attained this via the Univeristy in Dublin, Irleland.

This has come a real concern to see what should be a NOUN, made into a Verb
within many English texts, even modern some Greek parphrase has come to this.
Though sounds nice in word flow in English, changes the theology and doctrine to a a critical point.

Again I completely understand you can not be all things to all people, and the factor of Time/Costs.

Lord Bless you and yours

shalom

????????
Rev M W Durrance -director
Ekklesia Foundation

#5 Joe Weaks

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 01:48 PM

...The Greek NA is alright as WHY use versions which are NOT based on the Byzantine period. The versions you have listed above ARE NOT based on ORTHODOX but rather Roman Catholic and Protestant edtions of the Greek NT;
just as the LXX editions you have available.

Mr. Ekklesia [sic],
Your statements regarding textual history don't make sense. For one, the differentiation you make between the TR and the MT are nearly non-existent. To call a text based upon later Byzantine manuscripts "older" than a modern reconstruction such as the NA that favors what are in fact older manuscripts seems a little off.
I'm simply trying to understand what text you are asking for. Are you wanting the Greek text behind Tyndale? Behind the current Greek Orthodox modern translation? You are claiming a bit of scholarly authority in your discussion of the texts, and as head of a foundation, so I would encourage the practive of using the scholarly identification of specifically what text you mean.

Edited by Joe Weaks, 26 June 2005 - 01:50 PM.

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#6 Ekklesia Foundation

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Posted 27 June 2005 - 05:34 PM

Mr Weaks you are obviously an American with Texas logic. I did not know you became the moderator of this forum ? :huh:

We hold citizenship now three nations, though born in America, a tribal american. ALL my scholarly texts attained from Europe
since the 1960s.

This forum in multi national, multi racial so please bear that in mind.

TR you refer too is the Textus Receptus which the Protestants accept
but most Orthodox Greek do no!

The the Greek text behind Tyndale was not Textus Receptus for that
was printed after his murder by the Roman church. He used a Byzantine text. It is amazing the work of Tyndale, and can not disagree with any of his translation seen to date.

The NA is based upon Nestle and the related work here LXX is a finish
by Rahifs . Both were based on the Western manuscripts, which
are open to criticism as the DARK ages affect the accuracy of those scripts.
Latin was the prime language for over 900 years.

The EASTERN were very little affected by the Dark Ages.


Have you spent any time in nations like Greece? It is wonderful to see
the ancient language, even in stone, uninfluenced by british or american
logic. The Holy Script comes alive!


Have you studied outside the United States? You may be in for a shock.
:-)


You are mistaken to think am using te Foundation to claim anything. Having lived many years outside the USA and within thirty seven nations, have learned long ago words or scholarship claims of the US on ANYTHING including the church does not make it so.

We maintain Ancient Orthodox Greek and Byzantine Greek texts hold far greater accuracy.


Am sorry :rolleyes: my English does meet your American requirements:

At prime of life spoke eight languages and lay English rules aside in order to attain a purer rendition of 'what it is the ancient texts says'

Survived three strokes which affected my speech and words. But has not affected my ability to hunger for His Word


Create in me a clean heart, oh God

Quote removed HB

Edited by Helen Brown, 29 June 2005 - 08:32 AM.

Rev M W Durrance -director
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#7 Joe Weaks

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Posted 27 June 2005 - 08:57 PM

Rev. Durrance,
I apologize for any offense you perceived on my part, although that "clean heart" of which you speak might include a consideration of the possibility that you found offense where none was present, or at least intended.

I share the love of reading Greek texts off of ancient stonework you mention. You sound like you've been blessed with a rich life of experience and travel. Since you asked, I have studied with scholars, museums, and ancient sites in England, Germany, Greece, Turkey, Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
However, regardles off all your objections, I'm afraid to say that my main point remains... if you don't say exactly what text you are asking for, no one will know what text you mean. To say "Byzantine text" indicates no specific text. Name a published text.

(You clearly have an "Americo-centric-scholarship" axe to grind, one that I'm all for really. You presume too much when you think that my being from Texas makes certain I have no appreciation for things not Texan. But I'm not sure your objections aren't more theological than cultural: "Byzantine Greek texts hold far greater accuracy". Theological arguments about the superiority of a particular textual tradition debates are not new to the Accordance forum, nor need they be made here in my opinion.)
Joe Weaks
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#8 Ekklesia Foundation

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 09:22 AM

Salute
will tone this down ENGLISH dear friends all to often askew the Biblical Text
my descent is based:
tribal american tribe SEMINOLE the same family roots which the US Army surrendered;
also Jewish descent maternal side and all too tired of seeing US bully tactics on Israel this r day
having been in camps of refugees from Cambodia and Kurds from Iraq in the 1970's learned long time ago the US church ignored :(
prophecy and moral ethics of that day, therefore from day and as today have focused on the Indian Tribes and Oriental ethnic groups when in America;
have spent 28 years in Asia and Europe often helping to place key scripture words into the native tongue

these words concludes our dissent to this subject

Will rephrase and post these Queries to derive at some truths

Wycliffe translated into English from Latin Vulgate
+the English burnt him at the stake for it

Tyndale - was first to placed into English the NT from Greek
and part of the OT from Hebrew
+ the Catholic strangled then burnt him and most of his bibles

Complicated subject as the Catholic and many Protestants
are very head strong

The Jews had the OT in the Septuagint and of course
'a thousand forms' of Greek copies of the NT


THE ERROR that so many Catholic/Protestants make

they forget the Dark Ages which the Roman CATHOLIC was
deep within

these Protestants did not begin till Luther, Tyndale,
John Rogers, Coverdale etc.

please note:

the church in the western europe went into dark ages
nearly 900 years

the orthodox did not descend into such depth of the
dark ages as the Byzantine scriptures remained very
accurate till the 15th century

WHICH LEADS TO THESE QUERIES :blink:

my copies of the Septuagint are edited after WWI and question many of the words in the Greek textas it does not line up each case with study notes
just as been the case with nestle greek new testament

a rewording simpler terms

looking for an ancient Byzantine Text,
the basis of the Greek Orthodox
the OT which is the Septuagint


There has been talk this year AGAIN of the Codex Sinaiticus
however having dwelled outside in many culture we have critical of this validity of this text.
Earlier this morning a scholar from Greece has sent us details that apparently Israeli technology
has been to used corrections or alterations to this text.

Our FAITH should not be shaken, as reply to my Greek friend,
"We have met the Author" :)

[ think many on this forum have met the author as well ]

Tyndale was a master in English, with the skill to lay aside some rules of the day to convey the depth and breadth of the greek text

like the words derived from Tyndale to ' swim in the Love of God '

shalom
Rev M W Durrance -director
Ekklesia Foundation

#9 Ron Webber

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 10:34 AM

Greetings Rev. Durrance,

I dont think you need to take offense at Joe; he is only trying to help. From his perspective, the Byzantine text is simply a later text type and the Nestle-Aland eclectic text represents the text type present in the earliest extant Greek manuscripts, those manuscripts copied before the dark ages of the church. The fact is there is no representative of the Majority text from any geographical region earlier than the Gothic version from the end of the fourth century, and no representative of a Pauline Majority text from anywhere before the ninth century. All the Greek manuscripts and versions that antedate the fourth century are non-Byzantine. That includes the readings behind the Coptic, the Ethiopic, the Latin, and the Syrian translations. There is a very broad geographical distribution for the other text this is not just limited to Alexandria Egypt. Based on the evidence we currently have, the Byzantine is simply not the earliest text. When you insist otherwise, you do so out of bias or prejudice, but not based on objective evidence. I trust this helps. (And go easy on Joe hes a nice guy) :)

Best regards,
Ron Webber
Professor of Biblical Languages
Heart of America Seminary

#10 Ekklesia Foundation

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 06:00 AM

  When you insist otherwise, you do so out of bias or prejudice, but not based on objective evidence.  I trust this helps.  (And go easy on Joe hes a nice guy)  :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


my earlier writing should have been - dissent [ dang spell checkers ] :mellow:

and here will have to place Dissent as your arguments
are based what seems on a non objective Roman Catholic / Protestant logic

no offense taken or intended
have spoken in RC works from time to time
have spoken and placed in oversight [ before physical health issues ]
over several hundred ministries in the British Isles in the 1980's
which were protestant and groups of believer whom descend from the
second century


Dissent as the ORTHODOX we have worked with, disagree with your scholarship
not only have been in Greece:
have helped those in the Orthodox in the 1980's
have regular correspondence with those whom are the Orthodox Greek

The current argument has gone on for a considerable time,
your argument is very American. Many disagree strongly
The British, the Greeks, the Egyptians and Israeli are but a few.
For an American make a week visit or a few months tour can not produce evidence
as to Ancient TEXTS.

Have made overseas phone calls and e-mail only this very week, to see
if my own memory has lasped,
but plainly we can not accept your argument

Through the years have found words in the Nestle NT and Rahifs OT Septuagint
that do not match up. Words which are rendered as
verbs which should be nouns. The endings of words altered
leads me to conclude the influence of Roman Catholicism.
The RC fell into the Dark Ages however not all those of Faith went
into the dark ages Greece, Egypt are examples.

This heavily affects doctrine, as the vast wonders of our salvation
and there is prophecy. Much of the Bible does show us our future
BEFORE the event!

This servant gave OPEN DISSENT in 1969 that the 'twin towers' being built
would indeed come down as 'judgement of God' .
Again video work was made on this prophecy in spring 1990 in Europe.
The English texts published in America are at best
ambiguous on that matter. :huh:

As it turns out I was not alone
before that ' terrible day' approached other servants from
European and Israeli scholarship saw this, one given to understand moved his congregation from the immediate area.

We have a sure word of Prophecy:
a- if however our text is askew events such as 9 11 will take one by surprise
b- matter of conscience - the year that 9 11 was on supplemental liquid oxygen
have regained strength

can not remain silent, both America and Britain are headed down a path of certain destruction, only a miracle of reformation can spare



The above material are not alone to disagree with your scholarship.


I will close with this url links, making nil claim to the authenticity.
This link was sent to me from a scholar within Greece thsi week.


http://www.christian...t.bible/206.htm
Rev M W Durrance -director
Ekklesia Foundation

#11 Tom Castle

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 07:38 AM

I have been reading this thread...
It should be deleted immediately. This forum is for the discussion of Accordance, its modules, and items related to it. This discussion has clearly left the boundaries of that rule and is becoming quite offensive. While many may agree with Mr. Durrances position of Byzantine preference, his posts have become hostile in nature towards America and her protestant churches.

The answer to Mr Durrances request for an earlier dated Byzantine text (the existance of such an animal eludes me) has been answered in this post.

I hope that Helen and the administrators will take action on this immediately. This thread is of no value to the Accordance community and, to be quite honest, is volatile at best.
In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
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#12 Ron Webber

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 08:25 AM

Dear Accordance Users:

I had hoped to put an end to the endless tirade of one of the previous posters, but it appears that was poor judgment on my part. Tom is right: this discussion has degenerated beyond usefulness to anyone. I apologize for whatever part I may have played in that. Helen, please delete this thread. It has gotten downright ugly.

Sincerely,
Ron Webber

Edited by Ron Webber, 29 June 2005 - 08:28 AM.


#13 Helen Brown

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 08:34 AM

I agree this has strayed far from our Forums Guidelines. The topic is now closed. Please do not start another to continue the discussion.

Edit by Joel: Specifically, here are the parts of the guidelines that the thread violates.

Accordance users comprise a very diverse group of people. This group includes people from all walks of life: students, scholars, rabbis, priests, ministers, missionaries, "laypeople," -- you name it. This group also includes members of various religious groups and theological traditions.

Though Mr. Durrance has claimed certain people are supporting an American centric view of the texts, many of the ways these have ben stated have been quite offensive to many forum members, and in some cases all Americans.

Discussion of Biblical interpretation, points of theology, and personal beliefs is inappropriate for this board

Though to some extent, minor topics not directly related to Accordance are allowed, this topic has gone on for too long too far outside the bounds of the guidelines. It has long since turned from a question about Modules in Accordance to that of textual accuracy. As I just said, these are allowed as minor sidenotes, but this one has simply gone on too far.
Helen Brown
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