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Verb without a complement. What's wrong?


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#1 David Knoll

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 12:51 PM

I am looking for all the occurrences of שמר without an object. I thought I'd search as in the screenshot attached, but the occurrences with the object are not filtered out. I must be doing something wrong. Can anyone point out to me how I should run this search?

Attached File  Screen Shot 2014-11-18 at 19.45.27.png   39.67KB   3 downloads


Edited by David Knoll, 18 November 2014 - 12:52 PM.


#2 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 07:20 PM

David,

 

Try it *without* the "Search both directions" box selected. Then it works (for comps following the verb). 

 

We have found an error in Acc 11 with syntax searching; I'll report it now.


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#3 David Knoll

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 11:20 PM

Thank you! Do I understand correctly that if I place the complement phrase first, the problem persists?



#4 Peter Bekins

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 08:58 AM

So, is this search logic indeed asking for all clauses involving the predicate שמר that lack a complement? Based on how NOT works elsewhere, I would most naturally read this as a search for a clause involving the predicate שמר and some other constituent that is not a complement, i.e. שמר [predicate] AND X where X IS NOT [complement]. 



#5 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 06:04 PM

Actually, Mr. Shades (your pic kills me -- it's almost as bad as my horrid studio photo), the search should simply have a negative Comp Phrase. But when I do that in Acc 11, it's gives me a warning. I think it's another bug.

 

[Correction, now in 11.0.2 the warning no longer pops up, so that's fixed]

 

David -- I forgot to try it by building it the other way. I just did and sadly it doesn't work. So, the positive build works, but negating the comp phrase does not. 

 

Thanks for finding this bug.


Edited by Robert Holmstedt, 19 November 2014 - 06:05 PM.

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#6 David Knoll

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 12:25 AM

Thank you prof Holmstedt. If I understand correctly the conversation between you and mr. Bekins there is another way to find what I want which still works. If that is the case, could you attach a screenshot of the construct?

#7 Peter Bekins

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 08:30 AM

My shades pick is much cooler than your yearbook pic, Robert. So if I understand correctly, you are saying NOT applied to a clause or phrase means -, so the search logic is "predicate phrase AND predicate IS שמר AND [- complement phrase]?

 

David, my instinct is that this search should really be a search for a NULL complement, but I don't know if the NULL searching is working right yet and I do not remember how we treated the argument structure of שמר. Valency is probably something that needs to be given a second look once the initial tagging is complete.



#8 David Knoll

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 10:05 AM

My shades pick is much cooler than your yearbook pic, Robert. So if I understand correctly, you are saying NOT applied to a clause or phrase means -, so the search logic is "predicate phrase AND predicate IS שמר AND [- complement phrase]?

 

David, my instinct is that this search should really be a search for a NULL complement, but I don't know if the NULL searching is working right yet and I do not remember how we treated the argument structure of שמר. Valency is probably something that needs to be given a second look once the initial tagging is complete.

I wonder if it is wise to tag null complements. If that is done, the user needs to know what valency you decided each verb lexeme to have.  



#9 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 10:07 AM

Pete,

 

Perhaps, but only slightly cooler. On valency, John Cook is working on finishing his valency lexicon and then we will indeed make another pass through the database for consistency.

 

David -- Pete's correct. I apologize that I was answering the basic issue of the search syntax and not really paying attention to the verb you were using. שׁמר is always bivalent (i.e., has a complement, even if it is null). In fact, I'm using this search to catch errors and fix them in the tagging right now.


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#10 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 10:12 AM

David,

 

There is no theoretically consistent option other than doing so -- if we admit null items (which we do and I discuss why in the background paper that is available in the Accordance resources page, somewhere), then we have to be consistent in our use of them.

 

If a verb has an overt NP comp 7 of every 10 occurrences and an implicit complement can be discerned from the discourse in the 2 more times, then it only stands to reason that the remaining 1 time includes a null comp, unless one can cogently argue that the verb in that case represents a distinct lexical entry (i.e., a monovalent entry). 

 

As for providing the user with a guide, that is precisely what John Cook's valency lexicon, which will match the final syntax product, will do.


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#11 David Knoll

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 03:19 PM

If that is sold in Accordance the problem is solved.

#12 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 03:44 PM

That is the plan -- to coordinate it via active links.


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#13 David Knoll

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 05:08 PM

Could you perhaps post a screenshot with the null complement construct? I think I am doing something wrong here.



#14 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 09:32 AM

Oh boy. It's supposed to look like this, but it's definitely not working.

 

Attached File  Screenshot 2014-11-21 09.30.52.png   17.59KB   0 downloads


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#15 David Knoll

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 12:04 PM

If any Accordance programmer is following...

#16 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 03:48 PM

Don't worry -- I've sent it on the primary syntax programmer. 


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#17 David Knoll

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 07:14 PM

Thank you!






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