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#1 Daniel Semler

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 11:04 AM

Hi ya,

 

  Is anyone aware of a resource, or other source, of a list, or the data to comprise one, of deponent futures, verbs having active presents but deponent (morphologically mid/passive active) futures ?

 

Thx

D


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#2 Enoch

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 12:20 PM

Hi ya,

 

  Is anyone aware of a resource, or other source, of a list, or the data to comprise one, of deponent futures, verbs having active presents but deponent (morphologically mid/passive active) futures ?

 

Thx

D

Greetings, Daniel.

 

My first observation may be needless, but I give it anyway:  IMHO the whole concept of "deponent" is largely erroneous, unless the meaning of "deponent" is merely that the active voice morphology is not used with the verb.  I think it is generally an error to assert that a morphologically middle verb has active significance.  I think the usual explanation is that one does not understand the Greek mind with this verb and that one is trying to force English (or one's native language) onto Greek.  

 

Thus you want a list of verbs which have active morphology in the present, but no example of future active morphology is found with that verb in the published ancient Greek texts.  I suppose that the lexicons will tell you for each particular verb whether this is so for all verbs.  However, it will be time consuming to look up all the verbs!  And there is the possibly erroneous conclusion that because a given verb has no active form written in the extant literature, such a form did not exist.

 

I am thinking that some kind of search string with Accordance could move you towards that data.  You could compare the list of future active verbs in the NT with the list of verbs.  That comparison would leave you with a list of verbs that don't have an active exemplar.  Of course that doesn't tell you which verbs just happen not to have a future active in the NT (though future active may have existed for the verb in koine Greek -- but no one used it in the NT).

 

Good luck. 



#3 Pchris

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 12:52 PM

Hm, good question. I don't know of any, unfortunately - what do you need it for?


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#4 Daniel Semler

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 01:00 PM

Hey Enoch,

 

  Thanx for this.

 

  It's certainly worth avoiding the error of assuming that the morphology governs the sense. Thus perhaps if one were to be highly abstract about it one could speak of morphology class 1 and 2 and so on. And then say that this or that verb uses class 1 for present act, class 2 for fut act and so on. But these terms have history and some utility because of it so long as one does not read too much into them. So yes I meant that the fut act used what is generally considered a mid/pass morphology. I also think that some verbs lend themselves to middle use simply by their semantic nature. Regarding the issue of Greek rather than English mindset, very true and it's a very hard thing to get to without growing up in the language which is a tad tricky these days.

 

  I checked LSJ and BDAG and GNT28T. The morphology of the future in the lexica is not identified as deponent though they do so for presents in some (how many ?) cases. GNT28-T is not tagged for deponency. This last point is interesting because of a recent (several months ago) discussion here concerning 2nd perfects. Rex Kovisto who does tagging for Oaktree commented that scholarly opinion concerning the 2nd morphologies was at the very least divided. Thus it seems that they are likely to move to simply tagging aorists and perfects and considering 1st and 2nd merely to be variant morphology. That is rather to my point above about morphological classes and part of the reason I make that statement.

 

  Thanks for the idea on the search. I also thought that Darin Franklin's handy little regex tool might help here, if I can construct regexes for the relevant future morphologies that I want, and the corresponding presents. It will take some monkeying around. I may be able to it in Accordance as it stands though too. The big advantage of that would be that I might be able to concoct a multi-tab search that could correlate the mid/pass fut with the act presents, albeit where they actually exist in the corpora. On that point I have AF in Greek and Philo and Josephus to play with also, oh and the LXX.

 

Luck may indeed be required.

 

By the way, do you know of a decent Doric grammar ?

 

Thx

D


Edited by Daniel Semler, 16 December 2014 - 01:20 PM.

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#5 Daniel Semler

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 01:06 PM

Hm, good question. I don't know of any, unfortunately - what do you need it for?

 

Fundamentally I'm a nutter !

 

Actually part of what I am interested in is that I ran across one and while a couple are commented on in one or two grammars and MBG, there is nothing especially detailed on this. I am trying to learn Greek, and I mean really learn it, so a lot of things arouse my curiosity. For example there is an interesting piece in Robertson concerning Doric futures in connection with deponent futures. I am not sure if I have understood that piece completely which means of course that I have not. But I am wondering if the deponent future is a diachronic hangover if you like. Actually a 'diachronic hangover' sounds pretty dreadful :)

 

thx

D


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#6 Enoch

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 01:46 PM

Hey Enoch,

 

  Thanx for this.

 

  It's certainly worth avoiding the error of assuming that the morphology governs the sense. Thus perhaps if one were to be highly abstract about it one could speak of morphology class 1 and 2 and so on. And then say that this or that verb uses class 1 for present act, class 2 for fut act and so on. But these terms have history and some utility because of it so long as one does not read too much into them. So yes I meant that the fut act used what is generally considered a mid/pass morphology. I also think that some verbs lend themselves to middle use simply by their semantic nature. Regarding the issue of Greek rather than English mindset, very true and it's a very hard thing to get to without growing up in the language which is a tad tricky these days.

 

  I checked LSJ and BDAG and GNT28T. The morphology of the future in the lexica is not identified as deponent though they do so for presents in some (how many ?) cases. GNT28-T is not tagged for deponency. This last point is interesting because of a recent (several months ago) discussion here concerning 2nd perfects. Rex Kovisto who does tagging for Oaktree commented that scholarly opinion concerning the 2nd morphologies was at the very least divided. Thus it seems that they are likely to move to simply tagging aorists and perfects and considering 1st and 2nd merely to be variant morphology. That is rather to my point above about morphological classes and part of the reason I make that statement.

 

  Thanks for the idea on the search. I also thought that Darin Franklin's handy little regex tool might help here, if I can construct regexes for the relevant future morphologies that I want, and the corresponding presents. It will take some monkeying around. I may be able to it in Accordance as it stands though too. The big advantage of that would be that I might be able to concoct a multi-tab search that could correlate the mid/pass fut with the act presents, albeit where they actually exist in the corpora. On that point I have AF in Greek and Philo and Josephus to play with also, oh and the LXX.

 

Luck may indeed be required.

 

By the way, do you know of a decent Doric grammar ?

 

Thx

D

 Let's see, Daniel.

You want a decent Grammar for Dorks. A dork would not want an indecent grammar!   hum.

LOL

 

You might take a look at Carl Darling Buck (whose IndoEuropean root book I would love to have).

Many years ago I sat in a class on Greek Dialects.  I think the text was by C D Buck.  It may be the one to which I link below.

I don't know how useful this will be.  

 

https://archive.org/...u31924031214822

 

He may have another book, an anthology of exemplars of Doric.

As I recall the choruses in the Greek tragedians are written in Doric -- I don't know how authentic the Doric is.  Here is an article on Doric choruses:

 

http://www.aoidoi.or...oral_doric.html

 

I am thinking that a high percentage of the Doric distinctness from Attic is phonological rather than other grammatical.

 

I take it that the ancient Greeks wrote what they heard.  In modern times English writers all generally write the same, somewhat pretending that it is all one language.  Imagine if a Texan wrote Huckleberry Hound Texan, a Scot wrote what he spoke, an Indian wrote as Indians speak, Africans wrote English as they speak it.   We would have a hard time reading each other's writings.  Compounded with the problem is that we write English largely as it was spoken hundreds of years ago, not as it is spoken today.


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#7 Daniel Semler

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 02:05 PM

Many thanx for these Enoch. I'll look them up

 

Thx

D
 


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#8 Julie Falling

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 05:32 PM

Daniel –

 

For what it's worth, I did a few searches.  First, for all NT verbs that are in future middle/deponent – there were 88 of them.  I took that list and and searched for the verbs among those that also had future actives.  That reduced the list by 10 verbs.  Finally, I searched those to find the ones that had present actives.  There were 23 of those.  Whether there is such a thing as a deponent or not (don't want to get into that debate), and recognizing that some of these are special cases (ἄρχω), you're left with 23 verbs that have middle but no active forms in the future, but do have active forms in the present.  That list is small enough that the words can be examined in lexicons.

 

Here they are:  

 

ἀναβαίνω

ἀποθνῄσκω

ἀπολαμβάνω

ἄρχω

γινώσκω

διαγινώσκω

διατάσσω

ἐμπίπτω

ἐπιγινώσκω

ἐσθίω

καταβαίνω

κατεσθίω

λαμβάνω

μεταβαίνω

ὁράω

παραλαμβάνω

παρασκευάζω

παρέχω

πίνω

πίπτω

τίκτω

φαίνω

φεύγω

 

EDIT:  There is a problem with that list.  It doesn't include the verbs whose lexical forms are active even if the present active does not occur in the NT.  Here's a modified, more inclusive list, 46 in all:  

 

αἱρέω

ἀναβαίνω

ἀνέχω

ἀντέχω

ἀποβαίνω

ἀποθνῄσκω

ἀποκόπτω

ἀπολαμβάνω

ἄρχω

ἀφίστημι

βουλεύω

γινώσκω

διαγινώσκω

διατάσσω

διατίθημι

εἰσακούω

ἐκδίδωμι

ἐκφεύγω

ἐμπίπτω

ἐνίστημι

ἐντέλλω

ἐξομολογέω

ἐπανίστημι

ἐπιγινώσκω

ἐσθίω

καταβαίνω

κατεσθίω

κομίζω

κόπτω

λαμβάνω

μεταβαίνω

μετακαλέω

ξυράω

ὁράω

παραλαμβάνω

παρασκευάζω

παρέχω

παύω

περιβάλλω

περιζώννυμι

πίνω

πίπτω

συλλαμβάνω

τίκτω

φαίνω

φεύγω


Edited by Julie Falling, 16 December 2014 - 06:44 PM.

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#9 Daniel Semler

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 06:32 PM

Hey Julie,

 

  Cool, great ! Many thanx for this. Glad to see it includes the one I found in Hebrews, ἐκφεύγω.

  I'll have a better look over this tonight I hope.

Many thanx

D


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#10 Julie Falling

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 06:45 PM

Check out the edited list.  There are only 46.  I had done some manually and messed up somewhere, so went back and did it in Accordance.


Edited by Julie Falling, 16 December 2014 - 06:46 PM.

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#11 Daniel Semler

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 11:39 PM

Hey Julie,

 

  You're a bit of a black-belt at this !!

  I've reproduced some of your results but not all. Let me explain in tiresome detail and maybe I can resolve the differences.

 

  All the searches were done against GNT28-T to use the old short name.

  1st tab : *@[verb future mid ind]     -> 88 different forms  tabname : FUT MID

  2nd tab : [HITS FUT MID]@[verb future act ind]     -> 10 forms found that need to be removed, tabname : FUT MID WITH ACT

  3rd tab : [HITS FUT MID] <NOT> [HITS FUT MID WITH ACT]  -> the difference of 1st and 2nd tabs 78 forms, tabname FUT MID ONLY

  4th tab : [HITS FUT MID ONLY] @[verb pres act ind]  -> 18 forms, tabname FUT DEP CAND1

 

  I'm off from your original of 23 by 5 those being : ἄρχω, διαγινώσκω, διατάσσω, μεταβαίνω and παρασκευάζω.

 

  EDIT 22:46 12/16/2014 : I worked this out. You were not restricting your last search to indicative presents and I was. I am not sure I should given that at least one of the five looks like a real candidate.

 

  Now those 5 aside for a moment there is an additional issue. You make the comment that futures middles not having presents in the GNT have been excluded in this process and you add another 23. True enough, but how did you find that the missing presents were active ? I have tried taking my FUT MID and excluding all present active lemmas. This would do it with the proviso that one assumes that all the missing presents are active which they are not. But in any case I only get 12 forms so even if I added them all to my 18 I would only get 30, but only 7 have active morphology in the lemma, which would get me to a grand total of 25.

 

Thx

D


Edited by Daniel Semler, Yesterday, 01:46 AM.

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#12 Daniel Semler

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Posted Yesterday, 01:25 AM

I just tried an English content search on BDAG for this : (Mid .. Fut .. <NOT> <PRECEDED BY> fut) <OR> (fut .. mid .. <NOT> <PRECEDED BY> fut)

 

That finds all the middle futures. They are not all with only active presents but there are only 168 hits and there is quite an overlap with you larger list above. I'll have to work it through more of course.

 

Thx

D


Edited by Daniel Semler, Yesterday, 03:06 AM.

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#13 Julie Falling

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Posted Yesterday, 09:14 AM

Daniel –

 

If the lexical form of the verb is active, the verb has an active present, right?  Even if the active form never appears in the NT?

 

What puzzles me is that when I do Search 3 the same way you did, I get non-verbs among my hits.  Can't figure out why this should happen since I'm searching only among verbs.  I get δέ, ἐν, οὖν, and the count is 82 (should be 81 if the 3 strays are added to the 78 legitimate hits).  There's got to be something wrong in my set-up or prefs, right?

 

Here are my searches:

 

Search 1 – Tab = Future Middle [VERB future middle]                                   —> 88 verbs (this is the easy one)

 

Search 2 – Tab = w/Fut active   [HITS Future Middle] @[verb future active] —> 10 verbs (also easy)

 

Search 3 – Tab = Not w/Fut active   [HITS Future Middle] <NOT>[HITS w/Fut active] @[VERB]  —> 78 verbs (what a surprise!)  

 

If I don't specify @[VERB], a few non-verbs show up among my hits.  Why?  I also did the same search by just subtracting out the specific verb list from the second search – didn't get the non-verbs that way.

 

Search 4 – Tab = final search?  [HITS Not w/Fut active] <NOT> [VERB] @ *μαι  —> 46 verbs, just like before.  The search was not limited to indicatives.  Figured I might miss a rare verb that way.

 

I don't suppose there is way way to reduce the number of steps in this process?

 

I'm going to try to streamline this.  Surely it can be done in less than 4 steps.  But not today – too many other things to do.


Edited by Julie Falling, Yesterday, 09:59 AM.

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#14 Daniel Semler

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Posted Yesterday, 10:31 AM

Ah thanx Julie is was the <NOT> [VERB]@*μαι that I was missing.

 

Oh regarding 3, I did that query several ways and you do get different stuff. In the end I did [HITS FUT MID]@-[HITS FUT MID WITH ACT] getting 78. But the <NOT> worked for me also so I don't know how you ended up with non-verbs. Oh there was one thing I noticed. The search scope can be a problem. I play with that a little but in the end left it on verse.

 

Anyhow, many thanx for this. Combined with my query from BDAG I have some examples to sift through. And then I can try other corpora.

 

Thx

D


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#15 Julie Falling

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Posted Yesterday, 10:42 AM

I hope someone will post and explain why I got those non-verb hits.  


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#16 Pchris

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Posted Yesterday, 10:55 AM

Exciting stuff, this - too bad I don't have the BDAG or LSJ module yet..


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#17 Daniel Semler

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Posted Yesterday, 08:05 PM

@Julie, I tried repro'ing your 3 extras on Mac and Win to no avail. Just a thought. I am using GNT28-T version 1.4. Is that what you are using ?

 

thx

D


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