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#1 Calvin Lindstrom

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 03:23 PM

I enjoy having the Waltke and O'Connor book as a module, but I am having difficulty finding locations in the book when I am given page numbers to reference. Any ideas as to how I might be able to do this. I believe in Wallace's *Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics* it is possible to search by page number. Could this be added to the Waltke's book?

#2 Helen Brown

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 03:32 PM

When we are not given the page numbers in the etext it is a lot of work to add them manually. It is actually a job that could be given to responsible students. Volunteers, anyone?
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#3 Robb Brunansky

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 09:55 AM

I wouldn't mind helping out with this some, but I would need a print copy of Waltke & O'Connor.
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#4 ryangeer

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 04:48 PM

has anyone had a chance to add these page numbers? is there an update yet?

#5 Rick Bennett

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:07 PM

has anyone had a chance to add these page numbers? is there an update yet?


We are currently testing a new initiative to add page numbers to tools. Depending on the success of it, we will be working through other tools.

So, the answer is no. There hasn't been an update to Waltke, but may eventually be (no promises on when).

Edited by RickBennett, 22 January 2009 - 10:08 PM.

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#6 ryangeer

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 10:45 AM

We are currently testing a new initiative to add page numbers to tools. Depending on the success of it, we will be working through other tools.

So, the answer is no. There hasn't been an update to Waltke, but may eventually be (no promises on when).


thats too bad since it makes this tool useless for me. oh well, money wasted - lesson learned.

#7 Rick Bennett

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:03 AM

thats too bad since it makes this tool useless for me. oh well, money wasted - lesson learned.


In all fairness, it hardly makes the tool useless. In academic citations of grammars the standard is always to cite section numbers. Many also include pg. numbers but this is not necessary. The exact section number tells the reader where to locate the precise rule you are referring to.

It is also possible to search for the content that they are citing, and it should be possible to locate the approximate section.

Page numbers are often added by the typesetter/printer after the author submits the work. When they export the file into a format we can work with, it many times strips page numbers. We simply cannot control how this happens. We can request that the source files include them, but we are at the mercy of the publisher. We understand the importance of page numbers for academic citations, and are working on ways to improve this. However, it is definitely acceptable to cite section numbers in grammars (and lexicons).

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#8 David Lang

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 12:50 PM

Rick's advice is absolutely correct, but assuming that you want to look up a page-number citation of Waltke and you have very little context to search for, why not find a creative way around the problem yourselves?

The Accordance Exchange should soon have available for download a user tool I created in about fifteen minutes. I found an image of Waltke's table of contents online (I don't have a print copy) and I entered the page numbers for each chapter in my user tool, followed by a link to that chapter of Waltke. By using this user tool, you should be able at least to look up the page number and get to the right chapter.

Anyone with a print copy of Waltke want to flesh this out by adding page numbers for the various section headings?

I'll let you know when this user tool is available on the Exchange. In the meantime, I hope you can see that a little creativity can go a long way.
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#9 ryangeer

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:30 PM

Rick's advice is absolutely correct, but assuming that you want to look up a page-number citation of Waltke and you have very little context to search for, why not find a creative way around the problem yourselves?

The Accordance Exchange should soon have available for download a user tool I created in about fifteen minutes. I found an image of Waltke's table of contents online (I don't have a print copy) and I entered the page numbers for each chapter in my user tool, followed by a link to that chapter of Waltke. By using this user tool, you should be able at least to look up the page number and get to the right chapter.

Anyone with a print copy of Waltke want to flesh this out by adding page numbers for the various section headings?

I'll let you know when this user tool is available on the Exchange. In the meantime, I hope you can see that a little creativity can go a long way.


its important to note that i said it makes the tool useless for ME, not useless in general. as little as i know about accordance, i know there is almost always a workaround - however, i need to locate specific pages referenced in a workbook i am using and as a seminary student with a full-time job and a family with 6 children i don't have a lot of disposable time. no hard feelings - responsibility is on me for not fully researching the tool. im just going to order the hard copy as well - seems simpler.

#10 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 06:50 AM

its important to note that i said it makes the tool useless for ME, not useless in general. as little as i know about accordance, i know there is almost always a workaround - however, i need to locate specific pages referenced in a workbook i am using and as a seminary student with a full-time job and a family with 6 children i don't have a lot of disposable time. no hard feelings - responsibility is on me for not fully researching the tool. im just going to order the hard copy as well - seems simpler.


Before you spring for the money for a hard copy, try the following link: http://www.apastyle.org/electext.html. There you'll find the current APA style for citing electronic resources that have no page numbers included.

Since you are at a seminary, you may also want to check out SBL's style: http://www.sbl-site....earchtools.aspx. The SBL Handbook of Style (which you can purchase from the store at the sbl-site.org) covers e-texts at SBLHS 7.3.12–14.

Another option would be to simply ask your seminary profs if something like the following form would be acceptable to them for an in-text citation (Waltke and O'Connor, n.p. [Accordance e-text])

The reason most [of us] college profs require page numbers is to make sure a student is actually citing the source, not making something up or being lazy [Sorry for being so blunt]. With page numbers, we can check it! Placing "n.p." in a citation indicates you are aware of the requirement, but that your source did not have page numbers. [Web pages don't generally have page number either.] That's very different from appearing that you either don't know about the requirement for a page number—or didn't care!

All of us in academia are struggling with the move to e-texts and websites. The standard style manuals (APA, MLA, Turabian, Chicago, SBL, etc.) are still working to find a generally accepted method of citation. Until then, all of us are just making do.

Blessings,
Dr. J

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#11 ryangeer

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 07:59 AM

Before you spring for the money for a hard copy, try the following link: http://www.apastyle.org/electext.html. There you'll find the current APA style for citing electronic resources that have no page numbers included.

Since you are at a seminary, you may also want to check out SBL's style: http://www.sbl-site....earchtools.aspx. The SBL Handbook of Style (which you can purchase from the store at the sbl-site.org) covers e-texts at SBLHS 7.3.12–14.

Another option would be to simply ask your seminary profs if something like the following form would be acceptable to them for an in-text citation (Waltke and O'Connor, n.p. [Accordance e-text])

The reason most [of us] college profs require page numbers is to make sure a student is actually citing the source, not making something up or being lazy [Sorry for being so blunt]. With page numbers, we can check it! Placing "n.p." in a citation indicates you are aware of the requirement, but that your source did not have page numbers. [Web pages don't generally have page number either.] That's very different from appearing that you either don't know about the requirement for a page number—or didn't care!

All of us in academia are struggling with the move to e-texts and websites. The standard style manuals (APA, MLA, Turabian, Chicago, SBL, etc.) are still working to find a generally accepted method of citation. Until then, all of us are just making do.

Blessings,
Dr. J



this has nothing to do with citing of sources. a workbook i am using for hebrew cites specific page numbers in relation to questions/comments about particular verses. without those page numbers to reference in accordance, using the tool become burdensome.

#12 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 08:53 AM

this has nothing to do with citing of sources. a workbook i am using for hebrew cites specific page numbers in relation to questions/comments about particular verses. without those page numbers to reference in accordance, using the tool become burdensome.


Bummer..., but I understand. I guess a hard copy is your only option.

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#13 Rick Bennett

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:02 AM

its important to note that i said it makes the tool useless for ME, not useless in general. as little as i know about accordance, i know there is almost always a workaround - however, i need to locate specific pages referenced in a workbook i am using and as a seminary student with a full-time job and a family with 6 children i don't have a lot of disposable time. no hard feelings - responsibility is on me for not fully researching the tool. im just going to order the hard copy as well - seems simpler.


Thanks for the clarification Ryan. I understand your situation. In our defense, you had to expect a bit of feedback considering you posted a comment on a company's forum site that one of their tools is useless. ;-) Our comments weren't meant to take away from your particular usage, but to try and find that workaround to help not only you, but other users who run into a similar situation, or may wonder what to do if they are trying to cite this work in a paper, etc.

I still think it odd that a workbook wouldn't cite the section. The one we're using in class (with Waltke) includes both section and page when citing his work. But, the Jonah handbook that I used last semester only cited the page number, i.e. WO, 37. Contrary to Tim's comment, this is actually the lazy way. It takes more work to specifically cite the section than simply placing a page number that may refer to multiple points.

This is getting a bit off topic, so suffice it to say that due to the popularity of this thread we'll put Waltke's grammar higher up on the list of works to add page numbers to. Having the print edition in addition to ours is not a bad thing, and I'm sure the author would appreciate it. :)

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#14 David Lang

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:09 AM

Ryan, forgive me if I'm being difficult, but if the workbook is referencing certain verses, do you know the verse references? If you do, why not search the Scripture field of Waltke for those references?
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#15 ryangeer

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 04:11 PM

Ryan, forgive me if I'm being difficult, but if the workbook is referencing certain verses, do you know the verse references? If you do, why not search the Scripture field of Waltke for those references?



2 things:
(1)To reiterate... I did NOT say the tool was USELESS but that it was USELESS TO ME - an important distinction. I love Accordance and would not consider one of its tool useless to the community at large. [responding to an earlier posting]
(2)It's not specific verses I am looking for, rather I need to find particular points of grammar and syntax.

#16 David Lang

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 07:22 PM

Ryan, we're not trying to badger you, we're trying to find a solution for you that might save you having to get the print copy. It may be that that's what you'll have to do, but if you'll give us a specific example of an entry in the workbook you're using, we might be able to help you.
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#17 ryangeer

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 09:27 AM

Ryan, we're not trying to badger you, we're trying to find a solution for you that might save you having to get the print copy. It may be that that's what you'll have to do, but if you'll give us a specific example of an entry in the workbook you're using, we might be able to help you.



68. See W-OC, 444.

A Workbook for Intermediate Hebrew: Grammar, Exegesis, and Commentar on Jonah and Ruth by Robert Chisholm Jr.

#18 Robb Brunansky

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 09:37 AM

Ryan,

I have gone through that same workbook and had the same frustration with W-OC in Accordance. My workaround was to look for the subject headings for particular topics. Usually, it is pretty obvious which aspect of grammar Chisholm is discussing, and W-OC is organized well to find specific topics quickly. A simple title search in the module usually got me to the right section. The other thing I did was, once I found something Chisholm referenced, I noted what paragraph number it was compared to the page number. That gave me a point of reference, so I knew if paragraph 3000 was page 150, and W-OC p. 444 was cited, it would be well after paragraph 3000. Jotting down a few of these helped me get a flow of W-OC and more quickly locate items by paragraph even when page numbers were given.

I know this isn't the ideal solution, and I would be overjoyed to see page numbers included in more (all) Accordance modules, but maybe you'll find it somewhat helpful while we (patiently) wait.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Robb Brunansky

#19 RobM

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 10:15 AM

68. See W-OC, 444.

A Workbook for Intermediate Hebrew: Grammar, Exegesis, and Commentar on Jonah and Ruth by Robert Chisholm Jr.



In addition to the way that Robb suggested, you can also use the browser. Fn 68 is attached to a discussion of how the hiphil of ngd is used followed by a preposition. Opening the browser to Verbal Stems/Hiphil Stem reveals 5 subsections: 27.1-5. 27.1-3 deal with form and meaning and Qal verbs that occur in the Hiphil. Since ngd only occurs in the Hiphil (per paragraph 1, pg 42 in Chisholm's wk bk), you can ignore the discussions in 27.1-3 and skim through 27.4-5 till you find the relevant section.

Also, while pondering your question, I was flipping through Chisholm's wk bk looking for references to W-OC and found a couple places where he asks, "How is the Hiphil functioning here?" and then lists the page range in W-OC where the Hiphil is discussed; namely, 433-46 (e.g., pg 41 paragraph 4). Although we don't know the page numbers in W-OC accordance module, we can go directly to the discussion of the Hiphil stem. Since you need to go to page 444, you can jump down to the last 1 or 2 subsections because you now know that page 444 is near the end of the discussion of the Hiphil.

I feel like this particular example is easier to look up than other possible examples. But as Robb mentioned, Chisholm's wk bk does refer to sections of W-OC and other grammars within a particular grammatical discussion. So going with the grammatical issue at hand, you can get pretty close to the relevant section of W-OC

Using this method does not exactly take you directly to the relevant discussion in W-OC, so that you end up having to read a little more while searching for the relevant section. While annoying and time consuming in the present, reading more of W-OC than necessary will only benefit you in the long run.

Hope this helps,
-Robert

#20 ryangeer

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 10:36 AM

thanks for both of these suggestions. if i weren't a father of 6 with a full-time job and a full load of classes i would certainly go this route. unfortunately, time is of the essence and in short supply - so a purchase of this book is going to be a necessity. can't say i'm happy about it, however.




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