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Tagged Version of the ESV


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#21 autopistis

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 08:42 AM

Any alternatives?


How about direct tagging information - just like in the original language texts?

So you hover over the word party in Galatians 2.12 and in the instant details box you read αἵρεσις, party, sect. Sounds great, except that that word isn't in Galatians 2.12 - it was inserted by the translators to make proper English. So I guess it gets linked as a phrase: "the circumcision party".

I don't know if this is feasible - the KJV tagging doesn't work like this, obviously.... what I mean is that when you hover on a word that isn't in the original text, there is no translation, so the reader is left to wonder where it comes from and what it is attached to, if anything. Perhaps this is too difficult a project...
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#22 jarcher

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 12:39 PM

bump

#23 Joe Weaks

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 03:34 PM

You just had to bump, didn't you? :) It makes it harder then not to chime in on the "can of worms" that was opened. Do correct any of my misconceptions, but regarding the stated merits of the ESV, the concept is that there should be a one for one word to word correspondence between English word and Greek/Hebrew words, and that these Greek/Hebrew words should be translated with the same English word whenever possible. Any translator outside of theology would gasp at this adherence.

The benefit articulated seems to make it a half step between reading a translation and reading the original language--but that's not a translation, though it may be a useful tool. I'd suggest reading the original language or reading a good translation. Phrases such as "it keeps the original gender of words" imply that grammatical gender in Greek for instance equates with gender in English and that is just not the case.

Many, even most, words in a translation could have an underlying Greek/Hebrew form tagged in, but placing such a restriction on a translation sure does stymie the translation. I've not seen the NIV Greek/Hebrew so don't know how they address this situation. It may be done brilliantly.

Just giving voice to one worm in the can.

#24 jarcher

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 03:58 PM

Joe,

Actually I agree with you. I have no illusions that the ESV is a word-for-word translation (or any other text for that matter), nor the belief that Greek or Hebrew words are translated the same way all the time. In fact, it is precisely because of these things that I want it.

Consider the following question: How is the word aner translated in the ESV as compared to the NIV or KJV? Anyone who is interested in inclusive language translation questions would greatly benefit from this type of key number text. Of course it can be done now with Accordance but it is a highly manual process. Or how does the ESV's "literal" translation really look when considered across the broader text? A text with key numbers can be used to both prove or disprove the "literal-ness" of a translation. Both of these questions can only be answered by comparing the original language with the word or words that the translators decided to use. And that information can come most easily with a key number text.

Jeremy

Edited by jarcher, 23 April 2007 - 04:00 PM.


#25 mythrenegade

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 06:19 PM

You just had to bump, didn't you? :) It makes it harder then not to chime in on the "can of worms" that was opened. Do correct any of my misconceptions, but regarding the stated merits of the ESV, the concept is that there should be a one for one word to word correspondence between English word and Greek/Hebrew words, and that these Greek/Hebrew words should be translated with the same English word whenever possible. Any translator outside of theology would gasp at this adherence.

The benefit articulated seems to make it a half step between reading a translation and reading the original language--but that's not a translation, though it may be a useful tool. I'd suggest reading the original language or reading a good translation. Phrases such as "it keeps the original gender of words" imply that grammatical gender in Greek for instance equates with gender in English and that is just not the case.

Many, even most, words in a translation could have an underlying Greek/Hebrew form tagged in, but placing such a restriction on a translation sure does stymie the translation. I've not seen the NIV Greek/Hebrew so don't know how they address this situation. It may be done brilliantly.

Just giving voice to one worm in the can.


It sounds like you have misconceptions about how those merits are actually implemented in practice. ESV seeks to be as faithful to the original text as possible, and I think they do a very good job (with some exceptions) on the whole. The problem is that in their effort to change as little of the text as possible they can come up with some very awkward english readings.

I like the ESV and I use it as my daily bible. I like to study from it and work from it. To be honest though, when I preach or write I do often find myself wanting a bible with better English.

Joel

#26 Joe Weaks

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 01:13 AM

It sounds like you have misconceptions about how those merits are actually implemented in practice. ESV seeks to be as faithful to the original text as possible, and I think they do a very good job (with some exceptions) on the whole. The problem is that in their effort to change as little of the text as possible they can come up with some very awkward english readings.

My specialty is not translation theory, nor have I read much of the ESV.
All I'm pointing out is the perspective that "chang[ing] as little of the text as possible" in my opinion represents a poor understanding of translation.
Quite simply, the desire to "change as little of the text as possible" is a desire that comes not from good translation theory but from a theological assertion regarding not altering the exact words of holy scripture as we have received them. I'm just wanting to call a duck a duck. I don't mean to call it a bad duck.
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#27 mythrenegade

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 05:26 PM

My specialty is not translation theory, nor have I read much of the ESV.
All I'm pointing out is the perspective that "chang[ing] as little of the text as possible" in my opinion represents a poor understanding of translation.
Quite simply, the desire to "change as little of the text as possible" is a desire that comes not from good translation theory but from a theological assertion regarding not altering the exact words of holy scripture as we have received them. I'm just wanting to call a duck a duck. I don't mean to call it a bad duck.


The problem is that in a translation you, by nature of the work, introduce interpretation. Thus when reading a translation you reading someone else's interpretation of what the original work says. In the case of the Iliad or the Odyssey or any other work of that nature, wrong interpretations don't affect how you live your life or what you believe God is saying to you, so you want as readable a translation as possible and interpretations aren't of great concern. With the Bible, I'm not sure I agree with that approach.

Some would say the best translation is the one that is most readable in English, but then theologically difficult passages have been decided for you before you even begin to read. The reason for trying to stay as close to the original languages as possible is to leave the tough interpretive decisions up to the reader. No one is arguing for word for word translation or as literal as possible, because you lose meaning that way as well. If we were, we'd all be advocating Young's Literal Translation and looking for an update that fixes some of the Hebrew tenses and such...

All translations are a tradeoff. The ESV is a very good translation, that is generally very accurate. At the same time it is not perfect. I guess that's why we take the time to learn the original languages. Still, I'd like to find a translation that I could recommend to everyone as "the best" and as of yet, I haven't found it.

Joel

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Edited by mythrenegade, 12 July 2007 - 05:35 PM.


#28 Greg Ward

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Posted 14 July 2007 - 01:31 PM

Tagged, yes.
Strong's, no.
But I cannot think of an alternative to Strong's numbers, except for the Goodricke & Kohlenberger's system.
Any alternatives?

~A!


Actually, the NAS95 also has an alternative tagging system. As to the ESV we are working on getting this done, and Crossway is naturally a part of that process. Please be patient, but it looks like this will happen, its just a question of when. I can't really say more than that at this point. I might also mention that we do see the value of this type of tagging, and will be working on adding this type of functionality a number of other translations as well.

Greg Ward
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