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#21 Freddie L

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 06:40 PM

I had a buddy of mine use them both. He was new to the Bible software world, but only had a windoze machine. He liked Accordance better. It was alot easier to use and it felt grown up. With a better interface that made our workflow much easier (tabs are wonderful).

But on the other hand I would like to see Libronix make a good product and I will buy it, because I believe that the Accordance people need some competition. Then maybe they will see that 30$ to unlock a Bible and 169$ to use other features is way to steep. I prefer Accordance because it is better for me but the ends do not justify the means when it comes to my wallet. So when Libronix comes out I will switch if Oaksofts prices stay to high for me.

#22 David Lang

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 08:45 PM

Freddie,

You certainly have the right to vote with your wallet, but you seem to imply that our prices are outrageously high because we have had little to no competition until now. The reality is that we have always had plenty of competition. Our prices are measured against those of shareware programs which are rarely updated, against those of Windows programs which are engaged in a price war with each other, and against freeware programs developed by hobbyists. When it comes to how Accordance is perceived by potential customers, those alternatives have always represented competition for us.

With respect to our prices, we have always tried to stay competitive with other commercial software developers, and overall I believe we've been successful. You mentioned Logos, so I did a quick check of their web-site. Their cost to download most individual English Bibles was $39.95 or higher. Obviously you pay less than that if you buy one of their packages, but their cheapest such package is $149, and you don't get a choice of which Bibles are included. Our $169 Standard Level gives you certain included Bible texts (KJV, NASB, etc.), along with your choice of two modern unlockable Bibles (NIV, NRSV, ESV, HCSB, or whatever you like). Heck, you get your choice of one free unlock with our $69 Introductory Level, so you can choose one of the most popular (and highest royalty) Bibles in one of our cheapest packages.

In spite of this, we're always looking for ways to increase the value of our Library CD-ROM and other CD-ROMs wherever we can. We're doing this not because of the threat of new competition, but because we want our users to be as happy as possible. If you would like to e-mail me (dlang[at]accordancebible[dot]com) and discuss where you think we need to revise our pricing, I'll be happy to consider your suggestions and pass them along to my employers.

I hope this helps.
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David Lang
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#23 Jonna Schmidt

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 08:56 PM

I agree -- I'm not an expert, but I think that the overall cost is about equal. I have a new Intel-mac Powerbook ordered -- my Powerbook is > 5 years; has seen better days -- but I would have to say that, assuming Accordance runs on the new MacbookPro (and it should) -- I think that "dollars to dollars", the products are about equal. Definitely, Accordance is more geared to the "scholar", similar to Bibleworks. If cost is a consideration (and everyone has that concern) -- I would think that Accordance might be the better bargain.

#24 Charles Stock

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 07:54 AM

As a long time Logos Libronix user, who over the course of time had invested thousands of dollars in that software, one of my biggest quandries three years ago, when switching from PC Notebooks (which would last about a year to 18 months) to a PowerBook (which is still going strong), was how slowly Logos ran in Virtual PC. Big Gulp. I researched and made the decision to move to Accordance.

Definitely, there is a learning curve and a few favorite features that I miss, such as the very customizable format for pasting text that is found with Logos. Beyond that, Accordance is amazingly superior for wordstudy, speed, original language work, even at a non-expert level. IMHO, Accordance can boast superior tech assistance and a generally great staff! I might almost be an Accordance fanatic!

#25 William Varner

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 09:51 PM

I have used Logos all the way back to when it was on 5 1/4" floppies! I also was a beta tester for Bible Works which I prefer to Logos in many ways. This past summer I finally got into Accordance. I think that it has it all on Logos despite Logos' strong effort to be more scholarly. BW and Accordance are neck to neck in many ways but the graphical search capabilities I have seen in Accordance maybe put it a nose ahead. Someone asked me yesterday if Accordance could find other instances of the same word appearing successively three times, as "holy" does in Isaiah 6:3. A few drags of the mouse and - bingo, four other occurences appeared. I don't know how I could do that in Logos or BW!!
I agree that it is much more expensive. I do think if they gave profs a big discount, it would help them in the long run. We are the ones who recommend this type of serious software to students.

#26 Ingo Sorke

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 12:06 PM

I'm very interested in Accordance, but 27 steps for search like that? Bibleworks can do that in 2 steps:

On the command line:

Step #1: l pastoral (that is a lower case L) <enter> = limits search to pastorals

Step #2: ('kalos =cn *3 *@n*).('*@n* *3 kalos =cn) <enter> = Greek kalos with noun within 3 words with number, case, gender agreement.

A graphical search would take less than 20 steps I assume.

Just checking if there's not a faster way to do that kalos search in Accordance.

Ingo Sorke

#27 Helen Brown

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 02:29 PM

It's not exactly 2 steps to enter those long command lines, not to speak of the time taken to learn them! Also David included steps like opening the text, and each click of the mouse.

However, I am mainly struck by the cryptic nature of your search entry in BibleWorks. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here is what David's search looks like, and I think it is very clear what he was looking for.

Attached File  construct.jpg   93.28KB   95 downloads
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#28 Ruben Gomez

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 03:35 PM

Just for the record. The equivalent to BW's *3 (within three words) would be WITHIN 4 in Accordance. This is due to the default logic used by each program. In BW, *3 allows up to 3 words to be present between the two search terms, whereas in Accordance, WITHIN 3 allows only 2 intervening words.

(Quote removed)

Edited by Helen Brown, 24 February 2006 - 06:46 PM.


#29 Helen Brown

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 06:48 PM

Ruben actually reviewed all three programs' performance on this particular search in this article on his very useful Bible Software Review Blog.
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#30 Ingo Sorke

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 10:00 PM

Good point. Since my trial with Basilisk is not the same as "the real thing" I'll have to save some $$, get the next Mac Mini, and give Accordance a try! :)

#31 G Hesketh

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:58 AM

The Logos Mac version is being delayed again according to a posting from their Exec on their newsgroup.
The latest info on their website said the Mac version would be available in Spring 2006, but now:

"The Mac product is slipping by a few months. I don't know how many, and I can't promise that it won't slip again -- I just don't know. But the best I know is that "Spring" is slipping to "end of summer".

Edited by G Hesketh, 03 March 2006 - 08:33 AM.

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#32 Steve Loosley

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 05:06 PM

"The Mac product is slipping …

Once before it was announced and "slipped." Let it slip!

#33 AlejandroBotta

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 12:17 AM

Well.... I don't want them to slip...although I promote Accordance among my students as the best program and preach conversion to the Mac platform as often as I can ..... :D Logos offers the complete Kittel, a basic resource for Biblical Studies, a translation of the German original, not an "adaptation" suitable for American religious taste as the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology ;) :D
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#34 David Lang

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 02:39 PM

Dr. Botta,

Smiling and winking emoticons aside, you seem to have a real axe to grind with respect to NIDNTT. You've now complained about its editorial decisions in two separate threads, and while you're perfectly free to question them, it seems to me that you keep trying to shoot the messenger in the process.

In this last post you explain why you don't want the release date of Logos for Mac to slip: you want access to the big Kittel, and we don't offer it. That's fair enough, and perfectly understandable.

What I don't understand is what you're trying to imply when you compare Kittel (which has merely been translated from German into English) with NIDNTT, which has been "adapted" from the German original for a largely American evangelical audience. The implication seems to be that Logos offers more balanced resources than Accordance; but this, of course, is just silly. If NIDNTT were the only Greek lexicon available for Accordance, you might have a case, but since we also offer BDAG, Louw-Nida, Spicq, the "middle" Liddell and Scott, and the "little Kittel," your comparison makes little sense.

Perhaps that's your point: you're just trying to be funny without necessarily trying to make sense. That's fine, but my concern is that others who read your comment will come away with the wrong impression. If you don't care for NIDNTT, by all means voice your reservations about it. But please, stop impugning OakTree for the editorial philosophy of one resource out of the hundreds we currently offer.
Sincerely,
David Lang
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#35 AlejandroBotta

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 04:54 PM

Mr. Lang,

Some clarifications:

Dr. Botta,
Smiling and winking emoticons aside, you seem to have a real axe to grind with respect to NIDNTT. You've now complained about its editorial decisions in two separate threads, and while you're perfectly free to question them, it seems to me that you keep trying to shoot the messenger in the process.


Sorry if it you read it that way. Grind? it has been in my wish list for a while. I cannot carry the Theologisches Begriffslexikon zum Neuen Testament or the TWNT everywhere. But I am aware of the NIDNTT confessional bias. Most people are not. No problems with the messenger. I prefer Accordance to any other software, I had a Win version of the ABD but bought the Accordance version as soon as I could. I think that anyone who tries Accordance finds it painful to use any other software (BibleWorks, Logos etc.)

In this last post you explain why you don't want the release date of Logos for Mac to slip: you want access to the big Kittel, and we don't offer it. That's fair enough, and perfectly understandable.
What I don't understand is what you're trying to imply when you compare Kittel (which has merely been translated from German into English) with NIDNTT, which has been "adapted" from the German original for a largely American evangelical audience. The implication seems to be that Logos offers more balanced resources than Accordance; but this, of course, is just silly.


I re-read my message and cannot see the implications you read into it.

If NIDNTT were the only Greek lexicon available for Accordance, you might have a case, but since we also offer BDAG, Louw-Nida, Spicq, the "middle" Liddell and Scott, and the "little Kittel," your comparison makes little sense.
Perhaps that's your point: you're just trying to be funny without necessarily trying to make sense.


That sounds a littel bit ad hominen, don't you think?

That's fine, but my concern is that others who read your comment will come away with the wrong impression. If you don't care for NIDNTT, by all means voice your reservations about it. But please, stop impugning OakTree for the editorial philosophy of one resource out of the hundreds we currently offer.


NIDNTT is a Zondervan product. How can I be impugning OakTree or any bookstore that carry that book for anything? I think you misunderstood my posting.

Regarding Logos, in addition to the Kittel, they offer just a few modules that I am interested in that I would like to have available in Accordance:

A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Joüon/Muraoka)
An Introduction to Aramaic
The United Bible Societies' New Testament Handbook Series (20 Volumes)
Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon (Full version)
The Context of Scripture, 3 Volumes
The Amarna letters

But I understand that the development of modules costs a small fortune and that you have to consider how many copies you can sell before making any decision. I think that Oak Tree has gone the extra mile with many products considering the small market that Mac has in comparison with Windows. I appreciate your continuous work, efforts, and good will to help us with our teaching and research.

With no grinds, no emoticons, and my best wishes,



EDIT: Fixed the tagging of Quote boxes - JB

Edited by Joel Brown, 06 March 2006 - 08:45 AM.

Alejandro F. Botta, Ph.D. 745 Commonwealth Ave., Box 371
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#36 David Lang

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Posted 06 March 2006 - 11:50 AM

Dr. Botta,

It would appear that we're both misunderstanding each other. I am happy that you did not intend to imply what I inferred. I was admittedly interpreting this post in the light of another post in which you had cited NIDNTT and other conservative resources as examples of how Accordance is "somehow victim" to "Christian religious fundamentalism." Since Helen had squelched that previous discussion as getting too theologically loaded, and since you then brought up NIDNTT again in a context where it didn't quite seem to fit, I assumed that you had some axe to grind. I'm sorry for misunderstanding your intentions.

As for the statement you felt sounded a little "ad hominem," I was actually trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Since what I mistakenly inferred from your post made little sense to me, I was entertaining the possibility that you were trying to be humorous and that I just wasn't getting the joke. That's all I meant by my poorly worded statement that you might be "trying to be funny without necessarily trying to make sense." No personal attacks intended.

At any rate, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I really just didn't want your comments to be interpreted as indicating that Accordance only offers resources from one particular theological perspective. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Now, since our discussion has strayed from the main topic of this thread, we ought to begin a new thread if any further discussion is needed.
Sincerely,
David Lang
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#37 Gregory Dietrich

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 10:29 PM

I just wanted to mention that I bought into Logos last year with their Silver Scholar's set. I loved it! I loved the idea of having so many great resources at my finger tips (NAC, Church Fathers, TDNT, Journals, Systematics, etc). I however switched to a Mac in August knowing that Libronix was coming to the Mac. I however have gotten very impatient with the switch so I bought into Accordance a couple of months ago. I just attended the Wheaton training session and learned how to do some of the great things in the software and now am heavily considering selling my Libronix/Logos and buying more Accordance Modules. The only thing that holds me back are some of the concerns already expressed; a lack of certain modules (TDNT, NAC, Systematics are the most important to me). However with WBC & NIGTC coming soon and Pillar already out, Accordance is looking more and more like a great electronic library.

Just my 2 cents.

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#38 mythrenegade

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 05:11 PM

I am currently in seminary. I know a lot of people with Logos. After sitting next to me for a while, they become accordance fans, bummed to be owning PC's. Then I try to convince them to buy a mac :D

Joel

#39 Alistair

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 10:05 AM

Does anyone have any concrete information on release dates for Logos? Merely curious to sample what they have on offer.

FWIW, I only bought into Accordance when the OS X version of Online Bible was not available. Having said that, and thinking back over the years, maybe I bought Accordance 3 for OS 7/8/9 while I still had the Online Bible.

I could see myself buying Logos for its extended library, but still using Accordance for its Bible searching tools because those are the ones I am most familiar with.

In fact, I still use Online Bible every now and then with a beta version of the application for OS X.

I also use some of the AGES libraries, but would prefer if they were able to be easily imported into Accordance (my struggles with creating User Tools are well documented elsewhere on this forum!).

In an ideal world I would use Accordance as the base application and import/access modules/tools/ebooks/texts/whatever from its GUI and using its tools.

I prefer to adopt a "both… and" approach, and while I feel Accordance is part of the family I am not religiously devoted to it. :) Perhaps other users feel the same. As long as Accordance can keep up with the competition, or rather, continue to stay ahead of it, I will continue to buy/update/upgrade and add to Accordance.

However, if/when Logos for Mac finally gets off the ground, and works, and works well, I would be tempted to seriously purchase it - or seriously be tempted to purchase it.

I see the question for OakTree is this:

1) Continue to develop specialist modules and features that a small majority of "power users" will request, eg Samaritan Pentateuch, Gesenius' grammar, etc, generating small amounts of high-income orders. Or:

2) Continue to develop less specialised but more generally accessible/desirable/marketable modules, eg Purpose Driven Life, Your Best Life Now, Prayer of Jabez, etc, generating large amounts of low-income orders. Or:

3) Try to fall somewhere in between.

~A!

#40 Helen Brown

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 10:40 AM

I think it is high time to close this old topic. I am now doing so.

Correction: this thread is really old. I would prefer that we start a new one on the subject rather than continuing to bring up this one. I did not intend to squelch all discussion on the topic, even though I do not think that it is always appropriate for our Forum.
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