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Necessary Accordance Parts for Greek/Hebrew Study


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#1 grj

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 11:33 AM

I have used Accordance 7 a little in the past. It is a very good product, but since I program computers all day I prefer to use books. I am not a scholar and cannot read Greek nor Hebrew. I am interested in learning what I can from the underlying languages without being a scholar, remember I have a full time job.

I saw an example either on the Accordance site or another where Jesus asked Peter if he loved him and Peter replied Lord you know I love you. The greek word is different for each occurrence of love. I would like to discover what the difference is between the greek words and why/if it is important.

Can Accordance help me do this? What primary collection and modules of Accordance should I buy?

Also, can someone in a simple way (I do not want to take up your whole day) give a brief description of how to do this?

Thanks,

Gary

#2 Thomas

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 12:37 PM

Gary,

Actually, there are two different words used (φιλεω and αγαπαω), but they are merely synonyms of the word love. I should like to point out that the emphasis here is not so much about the words used for love, but rather how many times the question was asked. Remember, Kefa himself had just recently been asked very similar questions three times during the time of Jesus' imprisonment, and had in effect denied even knowing his rabbi. So here in this passage, we see Kefa able to restore his devotion to his rabbi whom he loved very dearly.

Note, a linguistic feature of the book of John is that the writer frequently uses synonyms.

As regards being able to use Accordance for this, it's merely using a digital bible versus a printed bible. Such discoveries come from exegetical studies, and becoming familiar with the author as a whole. As for choosing a collection, can you say a bit more about how you study now with paper versions, and which books you use for that?

Best

#3 Lorinda H. M. Hoover

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 12:44 PM

Yes, you can do this with Accordance. (As Thomas indicates, it's also something that can be done with print resources. Accordance makes doing it faster, but you don't have to have Accordance to explore these issues).

You would need one of the Library 8 levels or the Zondervan Essential Bible Study Suite. (Or a Library 7 package if another seller is still offering them). You would need to use a keyed English text. Keyed texts include information on the underlying Greek or Hebrew word, which show up in the Instant Details window, and which you can use to search. Keyed texts available for Accordance include:

KJVS (KJV with Strong's numbers) included in all levels of the Library collection
NAS95S (New American Standard 1995 update with Strong's numbers) available in the Standard and Premiere levels
ESVS (ESV with Strong's numbers) available in the Standard and Premiere levels; it is my understanding that the Old TEstament is not yet fully keyed, but will be in time.
NIV-G/K (NIV with G/K numbers) currently available only in the Zondervan Essential Bible Stud Suite.

For more background about the various Greek or Hebrew words, you might want to look at adding the New International Dictionary of New Testament of New Testament Theology and the New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis.

Study notes modules available in these packages would probably provide more information, too. For example, the NET notes, available in all the Library 8 packages except for the Entry level, says the following:

Is there a significant difference in meaning between the two words for love used in the passage, ἀγαπάω and φιλέω (agapaō and phileō)? Aside from Origen, who saw a distinction in the meaning of the two words, most of the Greek Fathers like Chrysostom and Cyril of Alexandria, saw no real difference of meaning. Neither did Augustine nor the translators of the Itala (Old Latin). This was also the view of the Reformation Greek scholars Erasmus and Grotius. The suggestion that a distinction in meaning should be seen comes primarily from a number of British scholars of the 19th century, especially Trench, Westcott, and Plummer. It has been picked up by others such as Spicq, Lenski, and Hendriksen. But most modern scholars decline to see a real difference in the meaning of the two words in this context, among them Bernard, Moffatt, Bonsirven, Bultmann, Barrett, Brown, Morris, Haenchen, and Beasley-Murray. There are three significant reasons for seeing no real difference in the meaning of ἀγαπάω and φιλέω in these verses: (1) the author has a habit of introducing slight stylistic variations in repeated material without any significant difference in meaning (compare, for example, 3:3 with 3:5, and 7:34 with 13:33). An examination of the uses of ἀγαπάω and φιλέω in the Fourth Gospel seems to indicate a general interchangeability between the two. Both terms are used of God’s love for man (3:16, 16:27); of the Father’s love for the Son (3:35, 5:20); of Jesus’ love for men (11:5, 11:3); of the love of men for men (13:34, 15:19); and of the love of men for Jesus (8:42, 16:27). (2) If (as seems probable) the original conversation took place in Aramaic (or possibly Hebrew), there would not have been any difference expressed because both Aramaic and Hebrew have only one basic word for love. In the LXX both ἀγαπάω and φιλέω are used to translate the same Hebrew word for love, although ἀγαπάω is more frequent. It is significant that in the Syriac version of the NT only one verb is used to translate vv. 15–17 (Syriac is very similar linguistically to Palestinian Aramaic). (3) Peter’s answers to the questions asked with ἀγαπάω are ‘yes’ even though he answers using the verb φιλέω. If he is being asked to love Jesus on a higher or more spiritual level his answers give no indication of this, and one would be forced to say (in order to maintain a consistent distinction between the two verbs) that Jesus finally concedes defeat and accepts only the lower form of love which is all that Peter is capable of offering. Thus it seems best to regard the interchange between ἀγαπάω and φιλέω in these verses as a minor stylistic variation of the author, consistent with his use of minor variations in repeated material elsewhere, and not indicative of any real difference in meaning. Thus no attempt has been made to distinguish between the two Greek words in the translation.


Hope that helps a little bit. I realize I didn't give you detailed instructions. There would be some in the tutorial that's part of the help files. I thought there was something in the blog, too, but I didn't find it.

Lorinda

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iOS 7 (iPad)
Windows Vista Home Premium


#4 grj

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 01:06 PM

Gary,

Actually, there are two different words used (φιλεω and αγαπαω), but they are merely synonyms of the word love. I should like to point out that the emphasis here is not so much about the words used for love, but rather how many times the question was asked. Remember, Kefa himself had just recently been asked very similar questions three times during the time of Jesus' imprisonment, and had in effect denied even knowing his rabbi. So here in this passage, we see Kefa able to restore his devotion to his rabbi whom he loved very dearly.

Note, a linguistic feature of the book of John is that the writer frequently uses synonyms.

As regards being able to use Accordance for this, it's merely using a digital bible versus a printed bible. Such discoveries come from exegetical studies, and becoming familiar with the author as a whole. As for choosing a collection, can you say a bit more about how you study now with paper versions, and which books you use for that?

Best


Thomas,

Thanks for your reply. Your comments on the passage I used is exactly why I am interested in this level of study. One would not know the 2 greek words has no real impact on the verse unless it was studied. Again, I am not striving for scholarly abilities, just desiring to get started down the road to a little deeper study.

I rarely study the original language words. In a nut shell here is what I do:

I read a book through several times (in 1 sitting when possible).
Note things that catch my attention (repetitions, etc).
Read to locate logical high level transitions (ex. 1 Corinthians 1-6 is a response to Chloe's message, the rest to a letter from the church a Corinth).
Note the various points of each high level transition.
Break down these points into logical and manageable passages.

So, I was hoping that a little help from the original languages would add further understanding. When using a little greek I use my ESV Reverse Interlinear to get the greek word and look it up in dictionaries and concordances.

Thanks,

Gary

#5 grj

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 01:13 PM

Lorinda,

Thanks for your reply and direction on necessary modules. I am trying to determine if this is going to be helpful enough for me to spend money. If it can help me understand God's word better it clearly is, otherwise I will just keep on with what I have.

Thanks,

Gary

#6 Helen Brown

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 01:15 PM

I agree with Lorinda that adding a text like the ESVS will help you to explore the words behind the text without any background knowledge of the languages. This is included in Library 8 Standard level which would be a great starting point for you.
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#7 Thomas

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 03:15 PM

Gary,
Your zeal to get at the meaning is right on target for sure. Sounds like the modules noted above would certainly help in you investigations. Talk to Helen for sure; she'll help you get what you need.
I would nonetheless encourage to go ahead and begin study of the original languages. I would start with Hebrew, since it is the foundation of subsequent texts of faith, though I could understand one's interest in Greek or Syriac first. Learning a language like this might require many false starts, and can be learned slowly over a lifetime, but you will also inch your way closer to the fountain head. Let me know if you have any interest on this front. You can IM me if you'd like some tools geared to adult beginners.

שלום shalom

#8 grj

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 08:59 PM

Another question.

A greek concordance is an index of all greek word occurrences in the New Testament. A greek word dictionary gives definitions for each word. I hope this is correct at least on a simple level. What is a greek lexicon and where does it fit in relation to the concordance and dictionary? Also, is this something I should look into or is it a different level of study?

Thanks,

Gary

#9 Helen Brown

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 10:14 PM

Concordances are not needed in Bible software since the software brings together the occurrences of the word or phrase for you. A lexicon is just a more sophisticated dictionary. We have many in Accordance, some very technical, others geared to helping non-scholars understand the meanings and uses of the original words.
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#10 grj

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 10:21 PM

Concordances are not needed in Bible software since the software brings together the occurrences of the word or phrase for you. A lexicon is just a more sophisticated dictionary. We have many in Accordance, some very technical, others geared to helping non-scholars understand the meanings and uses of the original words.


Can anyone give me some examples of of non-scholar lexicons? I do not want to get in over my head and get discouraged.

Thanks,

Gary

#11 Helen Brown

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 06:52 AM

Renn's Bible Words (in Library Standard level, or individual unlock) and Bible Words (on Zondervan Personal Growth) are excellent tools for the layman on the level of Vines but covering the entire Bible. Both are English Dictionaries, but with Renn you can directly look up the Greek or Hebrew word (with an option-click from a Key text).

For more in depth word study in each language I usually recommend NIDNTT (Colin Brown) or TDNT (Little Kittel) for Greek and TWOT (Waltke-O'Connor) or NIDOTTE (Van Gemeren) for Hebrew.

These are each separate unlocks but if you explore the links you will see that some are included in certain packages. Each page on the website includes a screenshot which you can click to see at full size and get an idea of the contents. I apologize for the fact that some of the screenshots are really old, am working to update them. Don't worry, when used in version 8 they all look similar.

There are several other Greek lexicons which offer definitions of the words, but these are the best for the non-scholar IMHO.

BDAG, LEH2, BDB Complete, and HALOT are the most technical for Greek and Hebrew, and I would not recommend them for you at this point.
Helen Brown
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#12 Ben

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 04:07 PM

Hi Gary,

Can I recommend another resource? Don Carson's book Exegetical Fallacies is worth its weight in gold. In a way that can be understood without too much trouble, he outlines some important things about using original languages, some common traps, and will help you to know what to be wary of (like differentiating between 'loves' when there is little difference in meaning).

His sections on logic and word study fallacies will be most useful. The grammatical fallacies section will require some familiarity with the languages, particularly NT Greek.

Another thing, I wouldn't start with Hebrew personally. I love Hebrew and use it daily, but it's a steep learning curve. This might open a can of worms (which is not my intent), but NT Greek allows you to pick up some basics without too much trouble. It does get very hard as you progress (while Hebrew gets easier IMO), but I'd go with Greek for starters. Plus, it's the NT that's written in Greek, and that's a good place to focus for now!

#13 grj

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 08:29 PM

I am back again. Below is a partial quote of Lorinda.

KJVS (KJV with Strong's numbers) included in all levels of the Library collection
NAS95S (New American Standard 1995 update with Strong's numbers) available in the Standard and Premiere levels
ESVS (ESV with Strong's numbers) available in the Standard and Premiere levels; it is my understanding that the Old TEstament is not yet fully keyed, but will be in time.
NIV-G/K (NIV with G/K numbers) currently available only in the Zondervan Essential Bible Stud Suite.

For more background about the various Greek or Hebrew words, you might want to look at adding the New International Dictionary of New Testament of New Testament Theology and the New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis.


I understand the Strong's Numbers and the G/K Numbers, that is how they work. My question will all/any of the tagged translations above automatically link to the New International Dictionary of New Testament of New Testament Theology and the New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis or will I have to use those manually?

Thanks

#14 Helen Brown

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 09:23 PM

Yes, an option-click from any keyed text will look up the original word in any lexicon.
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#15 grj

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 10:31 PM

One more question. I often like to look up a word in the greek to see how it is translated within the same book. To do this do I need something more than what has been mentioned?

Thanks,

grj

#16 Helen Brown

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 06:33 AM

Option-click from any keyed text on the Search button on the Resource palette will look up the original word throughout the text.

The many uses of the key numbers are detailed in the Help files under Searching the Bible. These files are accessible in the demo version if you do not have the full version of Accordance.
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