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Hebrew verbs, which have 7 patterns


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#1 miqraot

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 10:26 AM

I want to search some Hebrew verbs which have 7 patterns (paal, niphal, piel, pual, hiphil, huphal, hithpael).
How can I search those verbs?
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#2 Helen Brown

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 02:18 PM

I think you need to be more specific. If you mean you want to find ANY of these stems, select VERB from the Search menu>Enter Grammatical Tag, and select each of the required stems (we spell them slightly differently). After the first item, hold the shift key to add more to the list. Click OK, and the search argument is correctly entered, and you just need to click OK again.

I do not think you mean that you want to find verbs that occur in ALL these stems in the text, but I cannot think of a way to do so anyway.

Of course, these kinds of searches require the grammatically tagged Hebrew text.

I hope this is helpful.
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#3 jpkang

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 02:54 PM

In case you actually did want roots that appear in all seven patterns, I suggest you take a look at Van Pelt and Pratico's The Vocabulary Guide to Biblical Hebrew, which was compiled with the assistance of Accordance. If that's the information you're looking for, they've done the hard work for you—specifically, they list all six roots which occur in all seven patterns and all ten roots which are attested in six patterns in Appendix B, "Verbal Roots in the Derived Stems Listed Alphabetically" (pp. 279–285). Also note their endorsement of Accordance on p. viii.
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#4 miqraot

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Posted 08 September 2005 - 07:23 AM

they list all six roots which occur in all seven patterns and all ten roots which are attested in six patterns in Appendix B, "Verbal Roots in the Derived Stems Listed Alphabetically" (pp. 279–285). Also note their endorsement of Accordance on p. viii.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yes, that is what I am looking for.
But, there isn't the book in my Univ. library.
Before ordering the book, I want to know whether there is any guide to search by Accordance in the book.
If you have the book, let me know those roots, please.

Somewhat, in order to know those six root, I feel that it take so long time.
From U.S to Israel, It takes usually 3 weeks. <_<

Anyway, I have to find a way to search by Accordance at the same time.
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#5 Helen Brown

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Posted 08 September 2005 - 01:58 PM

OK, Miqraot (wish I knew who you are):
This was a nice brain teaser (for someone who could not resist the challenge). There is a way to do this, and it goes as follows:
  • Open a Search window for the BHS-W4 and search for [VERB qal]
  • Duplicate the BHS-W4 window and search for [HITS BHS-W4] @ [VERB nifal] (this searches for lemmas that were found in qal and are also in nifal)
  • Duplicate the BHS-W4 2 window and search for [HITS BHS-W4 2] @ [VERB piel]
  • Continue the process linking each window to the previous one and searching for the next stem
  • When you have all the stems, click Details and Analysis to get this result:
  • Number of different forms = 6:
  • בקע to cleave, split
  • גלה to uncover, remove; to go into exile
  • חלה to be sick, entreat
  • ידע to know
  • ילד to bear, beget
  • פקד to number, appoint, punish, visit
It would be slightly faster to search for the rare stems first, but the results are the same.
See how powerful Accordance is when you master the commands!
Helen Brown
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#6 David Lang

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Posted 08 September 2005 - 05:36 PM

Awww, man! I just figured this out and was excited to show how smart I was, and Helen beat me to it! ;)

Oh well, maybe I can at least add something to the discussion. If you duplicate the final window and enter "*@[HITS BHS-W4 7]", then you will have searched for every occurrence of the six lexical forms which appear in these seven stems.

Now open the Details window and go to the Analysis tab. Then choose "Set Analysis Display" from the Display menu (command-T). Next drag the STEM item into the first column beneath the LEX item. Click OK to dismiss the dialog, and you'll get a listing of all the stems in which each lexical form appears. You'll see that each one does, in fact, appear in all seven stems, and that a few appear in additional stems like Hotpaal and passiveQal.

Pretty cool, huh?
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#7 miqraot

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 12:35 PM

How wonderful is it!!!
I need to study ACCORDANCE more and more!!!

Dear Helen. Already you know me... :D
I'm Ixang.
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#8 Neshmi

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 01:25 PM

This is a fantastic way to do the search... but it seems to me that there HAS to be a way to input the search from the first time, one string. I've not been able to do it yet, but I've been playing with the following:

[VERB qal] @ [VERB nifil] etc
and also
[VERB qal] <AND> [VERB nifil] etc


but to no avail. . . is the only way to do a full construction duplicating the serach windows? seems a bit cumbersome and tedious...

i dunno, but i'm hoping to find a way to work it all from one line, i don't fully understand the different commands, but hope to get there... ;)

blessings,
neshmi

#9 Helen Brown

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 04:25 PM

There is no shortcut because:

[VERB qal] @ [VERB nifil] etc
means that both must be on the same word (i.e. one word in one specific location) which is nonsense, the word cannot be both qal and nifil
and
[VERB qal] <AND> [VERB nifil] etc
means both must be in the same verse

whereas this search finds lemmas in which all the stems are found somewhere in the text.
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#10 Neshmi

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 04:37 PM

Yeah, I see what you mean. It would be nice to see a feature implemented that would let you put in a search string something to the effect of search the results of search string, for example, in effect letting you create an entire search string and then searching into that without doing multiple search... not that its THAAAAT big of a deal, but i'm like that... ;)

Still I do have to say that Accordance's search features alone make this programme with the cost and I've convincend many collegues to pick this program up just because of Accordance. Looking forward to the seminar dates here in London!

#11 miqraot

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 01:49 AM

OK, Miqraot (wish I knew who you are):
This was a nice brain teaser (for someone who could not resist the challenge). There is a way to do this, and it goes as follows:

  • Open a Search window for the BHS-W4 and search for [VERB qal]
  • Duplicate the BHS-W4 window and search for [HITS BHS-W4] @ [VERB nifal] (this searches for lemmas that were found in qal and are also in nifal)
  • Duplicate the BHS-W4 2 window and search for [HITS BHS-W4 2] @ [VERB piel]
  • Continue the process linking each window to the previous one and searching for the next stem
  • When you have all the stems, click Details and Analysis to get this result:
  • Number of different forms = 6:
  • <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>בקע </span> to cleave, split
  • <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>גלה </span> to uncover, remove; to go into exile
  • <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>חלה </span> to be sick, entreat
  • <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>ידע </span> to know
  • <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>ילד </span> to bear, beget
  • <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>פקד </span> to number, appoint, punish, visit
It would be slightly faster to search for the rare stems first, but the results are the same.
See how powerful Accordance is when you master the commands!


Shalom, Helen.
I upgraded my Accordance to 7.4, and tested to find verbs that have 7 patterns.
However, Accordance showed different result.

Posted Image


As you see, ילד is omitted.
Please let me know what makes this different result.
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#12 jpkang

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 04:32 AM

Please try the searches again (I think you must have made a mistake at one step)--I am running Accordance 7.4.2 with BHS-W4 4.8.0 and ran the searches and got back the six roots as expected.
J. P. Kang, Ph.D. (Bible)

#13 miqraot

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 07:43 AM

Please try the searches again (I think you must have made a mistake at one step)--I am running Accordance 7.4.2 with BHS-W4 4.8.0 and ran the searches and got back the six roots as expected.


Hi, Dr. Kang.

It's strange. I tried two times. Each time I obtained same results (5 verbs).
I am using Accordance 7.4.1, and BHS-W4 4.8.0 :blink:

Posted Image

Where did you download Accordance 7.4.2? I want to try the newest version of Accordance.

Attached Files


Edited by miqraot, 08 December 2007 - 07:55 AM.

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#14 Helen Brown

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 09:03 AM

The latest version is always available here.

I agree with J.P. that the search is working correctly and finding all 6 verbs, but I also see no problem with the search arguments that you are using.

What range is your search set to? If you search for ילד and analyze the search, do you get all 6 stems?
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#15 jpkang

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 10:17 PM

Here's the difference--I searched for qalPassive (Gp), not pual (Dp).

I wonder if the tagging changed recently in BHS-W4 for these forms which are construed as either Gp or Dp (e.g., see the HALOT entry).
J. P. Kang, Ph.D. (Bible)

#16 ieremiahu

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 05:55 AM

Hi, Ixang,

how's getting along?

I got 6 verbs, too, from the same method that you did.
though I tried with BHS-W4 4.4.3 and Accordiance 7.4.1.

Just try it again.. I think you will get it.

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Edited by ieremiahu, 09 December 2007 - 05:58 AM.


#17 Helen Brown

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 10:39 AM

JP is correct that ילד is now passiveQal not hophal, so probably the last window needs to say [HITS BHS-W4 6 ] @ [VERB Hophal, passiveQal]
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#18 miqraot

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 07:44 PM

JP is correct that ילד is now passiveQal not hophal, so probably the last window needs to say [HITS BHS-W4 6 ] @ [VERB Hophal, passiveQal]


Does it mean that there is no Hophal of ילד ?
I complicate the tagging: [VERB Hophal, passiveQal]
Could you explain to me in detail?
If BHS-W4 was changed, do I have to search Hophal with Qal Passive from now then?
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#19 jpkang

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 09:17 PM

Does it mean that there is no Hophal of ילד ?
I complicate the tagging: [VERB Hophal, passiveQal]
Could you explain to me in detail?
If BHS-W4 was changed, do I have to search Hophal with Qal Passive from now then?

It is not enough to just change the last search (which would in any case need parentheses around the alternate patterns). The problem with the sequence of searches as you did them is that [verb pual] excludes ילד (which is attested in the hofal). So you would have had to substitute [verb passiveQal] at an earlier step to avoid eliminating it.

Unfortunately, there's no easy way to have known about this change, so I think the semi-foolproof way to check for these forms which might change parsing according to the editors at the J. Alan Groves Center for Advanced Biblical Research (formerly the Westminster Hebrew Institute) would be to search for [verb (pual,passiveQal)] and [verb (hofal,passiveQal)] to avoid unnecessarily excluding patterns at any stage. Note the parentheses around the patterns in these searches--this matches any of the enclosed alternates separated by commas. This, of course, does not result in stems which occur in the same seven stems any more with the revised tagging in BHS-W4 4.8, so a little more work is necessary--for this, follow David Lang's suggestion in post 6 above to analyze the attested stems for each lemma.

The tagging may have changed since the Qal passive perfect and imperfect are frequently morphologically indistinguishable from the Pual perfect and Hofal imperfect, respectively. See Waltke-O'Connor, An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax, §22.6, for more detail and other difficult forms.
J. P. Kang, Ph.D. (Bible)

#20 miqraot

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 10:08 PM

It is not enough to just change the last search (which would in any case need parentheses around the alternate patterns). The problem with the sequence of searches as you did them is that [verb pual] excludes ילד (which is attested in the hofal). So you would have had to substitute [verb passiveQal] at an earlier step to avoid eliminating it.

Unfortunately, there's no easy way to have known about this change, so I think the semi-foolproof way to check for these forms which might change parsing according to the editors at the J. Alan Groves Center for Advanced Biblical Research (formerly the Westminster Hebrew Institute) would be to search for [verb (pual,passiveQal)] and [verb (hofal,passiveQal)] to avoid unnecessarily excluding patterns at any stage. Note the parentheses around the patterns in these searches--this matches any of the enclosed alternates separated by commas. This, of course, does not result in stems which occur in the same seven stems any more with the revised tagging in BHS-W4 4.8, so a little more work is necessary--for this, follow David Lang's suggestion in post 6 above to analyze the attested stems for each lemma.

The tagging may have changed since the Qal passive perfect and imperfect are frequently morphologically indistinguishable from the Pual perfect and Hofal imperfect, respectively. See Waltke-O'Connor's An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax, §22.6, for more detail and other difficult forms.


Thanks Kang for your definite explanation!
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