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How can I find all the hebrew words in LXX...


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#1 YingLam

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 02:30 AM

...that is translated by σοφια and its count?

Ι have paid a lot efforts but find it too difficult.....

I already own MT-LXX database, LXX1 and BHS-W4.......

thanks........

YingLam

#2 Helen Brown

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 03:53 AM

In the Training Videos you will find one on the MT/LXX which applies just as well to the MT-LXX Parallel. There is a powerful search command which allows you to do just what you want, but it is a little complex to set up, so I recommend the movie or the chapter on the MT/LXX in the Grammatical Supplement PDF.
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#3 jpkang

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 03:57 AM

You will need three Search windows/tabs for this.

1. In the first window/tab, search LXX1 for σοφία. You should find 246 hits in 238 verses.

2. Now you will MERGE these results into an MT/LXX window. The Accordance Help > Advanced Features > Details of Stand-alone Commands explains: "The MERGE command lets you search the original Bible texts, and highlight the results in the (MT/LXX) tool."

So in a second window/tab, seach MT/LXX for [MERGE LXX1] (or whatever the window/tab is called in the previous); you should find 290 "paragraphs." Note that in the context of the MT/LXX reference tool, verses are "articles" and each aligned word/phrase is a "paragraph." The discrepancy in hits occurs because LXX1 contains apocryphal material (thus not in MT) and MT/LXX additionally contains Daniel-Theodotian (abbreviated DanielTh).

At this point, if you set Show: to Add Titles (keyboard shortcut to cycle through the menu is cmd-;); you will see a list of verses and just the "paragraphs" showing Hebrew and Aramaic aligned with inflected forms of σοφία.

3. Accordance can't automatically compile the frequences for all the different reflexes, but you can certainly save yourself quite a bit of work by doing a couple of additional strategic MERGEs. Knowing or guessing that ‏חכמה is probably the most common reflex (not necessarily always the Vorlage!) for σοφία, in a third window/tab, search BHS-W4 for ‏חכמה. You should get 157 hits in 148 verses.

Going back to the MT/LXX window in step 2, now add the commands <AND> [MERGE BHS-W4] so that the search box now reads:

[MERGE LXX1] <AND> [MERGE BHS-W4]

Now, depending on the scope of More options (below the search box), you will see either 261 hits (if searching within every "article," the larger scope) or 248 hits (if searching within every "paragraph"). Here it is useful to consider an example like Exodus 36:2 which only shows up in the "article" search, where some rather interesting differences can be seen between the Old Greek and the MT. So to cast the net wider, it is probably best to keep the scope to "article."

Finally, to see the relatively few places where σοφία is translated by something other than ‏חכמה, simply change the search command in MT/LXX to:

[MERGE LXX1] <NOT> [MERGE BHS-W4]

which yields 32 or 45 hits depending, again, on the scope ("article" vs. "paragraphs," respectively), and where we can see other reflexes such as:

מחשבה, תבונה, חכמות, דעת, בינה, כח, ענוה, מחקק, שכל

If you haven't, you should also study the "MT-LXX Parallel Manual.pdf" that is in /Applications/Accordance folder/Read mes/

Hope that helps!
J. P. Kang, Ph.D. (Bible)

#4 YingLam

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 10:09 AM

Hi Kang and Helen,

Thanks for the help. In fact I have read the training videos and the Grammatical Supplement.pdf on MT/LXX search. Therefore, I think I can understand most of the procedures by Kang. Thanks again Kang for your detailed help. You basically did me a recipe!

As for the search results, here are my questions:

1. I searched "‏חכמה=" in "All Text" of BHS(with Westminster Hebrew Morphology v.4.10), I get 149 hits out of 141 verses.

a. There is a 1 hit difference between this and Kang's result, why?
b. I setup a range which represent the 39 books of Christianity OT Canon: "Gen-Mal". I know that the book orders will change according to what Bible I am searching. So, I just used this range to search the key number [KEY H2451] in KJVS and NASB95S. KJVS yields 149hits, and NASB95S yields 153 hits. Why? What does it means when I compared this results with the BHS search, which is 149 hits also?

2. I got the exact result of LXX1 search for σοφία, which finds 246 hits in 238 verses. but when I pasted [MERGE LXX1] onto MT-LXX, I got 203 hits out of 202 paragraphs? How come?

3. When I pasted [MERGE LXX1] <AND> [MERGE BHS-W4], I got 239 hits and 230 hits respectively for with options set as 'article' or 'paragraph'. This started to deviate a bit more with the result of Kang....

4. Finally, to the climax here, I pasted [MERGE LXX1] <NOT> [MERGE BHS-W4] onto the MT-LXX(ver 1.0), I got 82 hits out of 81 paragraphs with options set as article, and 88 hits out of 87 paragraphs with options set as paragraph. I suspect this had to do with the results found in apocrypha, as I found a lot of hits there..........

I really want to understand this whole process. It involves a lot of concepts and the exact books on each Bible. I also want to be as accurate as possible and I am going to present some statistics on my Paper............

Therefore, if you read upto here, I guess you are also a guy like me, which want to really get into it......
^_^
Thanks God ,thank you....

YingLam

#5 jpkang

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 02:20 PM

1. I searched "‏חכמה=" in "All Text" of BHS(with Westminster Hebrew Morphology v.4.10), I get 149 hits out of 141 verses.

a. There is a 1 hit difference between this and Kang's result, why?

I corrected my statistics above to indicate 157 hits in 148 verses for a search on ‏חכמה. The reason your search only finds 149 hits is that it is missing 8 hits for the Aramaic lemma (‏חָכְמָה־0=).

b. I setup a range which represent the 39 books of Christianity OT Canon: "Gen-Mal". I know that the book orders will change according to what Bible I am searching. So, I just used this range to search the key number [KEY H2451] in KJVS and NASB95S. KJVS yields 149hits, and NASB95S yields 153 hits. Why? What does it means when I compared this results with the BHS search, which is 149 hits also?

I would not consider the hits from keyed texts to be anywhere near as reliable as searching BHS-W4, GNT-T, LXX1, etc. I compared these results and found that NAS95S is also tagging the plural form ‏חָכְמוֹת in Ps 49.3; Prov 1.20; 9.1; 24.7 as H2451 (this word is tagged as H2454 in KJVS).

2. I got the exact result of LXX1 search for σοφία, which finds 246 hits in 238 verses. but when I pasted [MERGE LXX1] onto MT-LXX, I got 203 hits out of 202 paragraphs? How come?

I'm using MT/LXX version 2.4--what version are you running?
J. P. Kang, Ph.D. (Bible)

#6 YingLam

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 07:23 PM

Hi Kang,

"...I'm using MT/LXX version 2.4--what version are you running? ...."
How come?

Mine is only 1.0.

but the web here http://www.accordanc...MT-LXX Parallel

shows that the version is just 1.0 also......

Thanks for your help and patience indeed.

YingLam

#7 Helen Brown

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 11:18 PM

The MT/LXX is the older version. We now have the MT-LXX Parallel which is a major revision and a paid upgrade ($50). J.P. should be using that one too!

The 2nd edition of the MT-LXX parallel database has been revised extensively by Prof. Frank Polak, and adds considerable functionality to the old database. There are new alignments of the books of Ben Sira, 1 Esdras, and Baruch. In addition, this edition of the database includes the "column B" data offering reconstructions of the presumed missing Hebrew original of the LXX. All of this is presented with an extensive apparatus of sigla to enhance the power of this database.

I am sure this accounts for some of the discrepancies at least.

I agree with J.P. that the key number texts cannot be relied upon for accurate statistics, since the addition of the key numbers was done by different people, using different schemes, and should only be regarded as a guide to finding equivalent words.
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#8 jpkang

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 11:21 PM

Mine is only 1.0.

but the web here http://www.accordanc...MT-LXX Parallel

shows that the version is just 1.0 also......

The description there reflects "The 2nd edition . . ." which was released in 2008 and reflects extensive revision. I just realized (as Helen surmised) that I was not using the latest MT-LXX Parallel modules (I had thought the version number 2.4 reflected this "second edition," but the module name also changed from MT/LXX). Incidentally, the "MT-LXX Parallel Manual.pdf" by Frank Polak for this module is 120 pages long!

And the upgrade costs $50, as Helen also mentioned.
J. P. Kang, Ph.D. (Bible)

#9 jpkang

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 11:31 PM

So, to follow up and make it absolutely clear to anyone who may have been following this discussion, YingLam and I were searching two different databases (he, the newer MT-LXX Parallel, and I, the older MT/LXX). I committed the scribal error of parablepsis, in the process glossing over the significant difference reflected in the slash and the hyphen in the module names, not to mention the new "Parallel" moniker for the second edition of this invaluable database.
J. P. Kang, Ph.D. (Bible)

#10 YingLam

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 11:55 PM

Wow,


I am confused. Do I already own the newer database?
I checked at my order history, and I bought this

http://www.accordanc...d=MT-LXX add-on

with the On Sale price: $150.00

It seems that Helen told me that I have to pay another $50 dollars to upgrade to version 2.0, but Kang is telling me something else......

:blink:

YingLam

Edited by YingLam, 08 May 2009 - 11:57 PM.


#11 YingLam

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 12:00 AM

Hi Helen,

I copied this out of the "About the Text: MT-LXX Parallel"


"The Revised CATSS Hebrew/Greek Parallel Text

2008 Emanuel Tov and Frank Polak
Used by permission.

Electronic text hypertexted and prepared by OakTree Software, Inc.

Version 1.0"

Is this the most updated version?

YingLam

#12 Helen Brown

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 12:43 AM

Yes it is.
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#13 YingLam

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 02:02 AM

Hi Helen and Kang,

Thank you so much......................
I have learned a lot of things....................

YingLam
:P

#14 jpkang

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 12:14 PM

OK, I just re-ran the searches as YingLam indicated and got identical results (but note that as stated, his original search did not include the Aramaic lemma). Whew!

I would need to work through the differences between the results of the two editions of this database to understand the differences in hits, but if anything, these searches show how extensive the revision of MT-LXX Parallel was!
J. P. Kang, Ph.D. (Bible)

#15 YingLam

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 02:21 AM

Hi Kang,

please let me know what's the differences once you got it. One of the things I don't understand is that there are a lot of abbreviations at the end of the list in the MT-LXX Parallel..................

once again, thank you so much.

YingLam

#16 YingLam

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 10:50 PM

One observation on finding the exact counts between a certain Hebrew word and a certain Greek word. It seems that the exact number of times between a pair usually is more than the number of hits one would find in the MT-LXX Parallel. Because the database will view some Hebrew phrase, which contains root form of the Hebrew word that I want to compare, but don't count it.

I have to stress that I am a newbie at Greek and a no-brainer to Hebrew....please correct me if I am wrong..........

^_^

YingLam

Edited by YingLam, 10 May 2009 - 10:53 PM.





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