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Let Concordia Know How Accordance Users Feel about Luther on Accordance vs. Logos Exclusivity


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#1 R. Mansfield

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 08:38 PM

From Paul McCain's blog:

We need to know and understand your feelings, opinions, suggestions, thoughts on Concordia Publishing House and technology. Would you take a few minutes to “mind meld” with us by taking this survey? Many, many thanks!

We've had discussions in the past regarding Concordia's refusal to allow Luther's works to be developed as Accordance modules.

See here and most recently here.

So, here's your chance; take the survey and let McCain and Concordia know that you'd like to see Luther's complete works available for Accordance.

Be nice :rolleyes:

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#2 Paul T. McCain

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 11:26 AM

I'd love to hear from thousands of Accordance users that they want Luther resources in Accordance and then to hear from Accordance that they are willing dramatically to change their business model to make it happen. But first, we need the thousands of Accordance users demanding the resources.

So, by all means...let us hear from Accordance users.
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#3 Helen Brown

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 12:27 PM

Paul:

At Accordance we have no idea what you mean by "willing dramatically to change their business model to make it happen." Please reply on or off the forum and let us know what about our business model hinders your licensing Concordia materials to us. You have never mentioned this before in the multiple refusals we and our users have received from you.

And why do we need thousands of responses to the survey? Surely a decent proportion of responses requesting Accordance modules would demonstrate the interest.
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#4 Steve Raine

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 12:29 PM

Just out of curiosity, am I correct that Concordia's web domain name is available for purchase?

http://concordiapublishinghouse.com/

?

Steve

#5 Paul T. McCain

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 12:35 PM

Paul:

At Accordance we have no idea what you mean by "willing dramatically to change their business model to make it happen." Please reply on or off the forum and let us know what about our business model hinders your licensing Concordia materials to us. You have never mentioned this before in the multiple refusals we and our users have received from you.

And why do we need thousands of responses to the survey? Surely a decent proportion of responses requesting Accordance modules would demonstrate the interest.


Actually, Helen, I have pointedly made reference to how we do business with proprietary software vendors, to Accordance staff, several times, as well as to folks who talk to me about this. Those comments are lost in the emotions of those who want CPH resources in Accordance format.

Key for us is reaching critical mass of customers who would actually be willing to pay for our resources in Accordance format.

Now that LOGOS is Mac native it is a difficult decision to consider offering our intellectual property in Accordance format, but if there are thousands of Accordance customers who would commit to purchase CPH intellectual property, and if there are favorable terms from Accordance, not licensing our resources to you and getting paid royalties for it, we might consider it, if we can show a favorable ROI.

But both factors have to be in place for this to be a go.

PTM
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#6 Helen Brown

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 01:47 PM

I am not aware that you have ever discussed the terms of an arrangement with us. We have different arrangements with different publishers. Some choose to publish themselves and others to license to us. I don't get involved in these discussions. I do think that licensing to us has some advantages to the publisher: they have no up front costs, and we can produce the CD-ROMs in smaller quantities and update them as needed, according to demand. Thus the risk of developing the product and then finding that the demand is less than expected falls entirely on our shoulders, and all the publisher has to do is to cash the royalty checks.

Since we are willing to discuss any model of licensing/publishing, I still do not see what business model we need to change. I will let our contracts manager discuss the details more intelligently than I can.
Helen Brown
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#7 Paul T. McCain

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 02:05 PM

Thanks Helen.

He can send me details at: paul.mccain@cph.org

Thanks,
PTM
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#8 R. Mansfield

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 02:09 PM

Concordia has nothing to lose and everything to gain by allowing Accordance to publish Luther's works. What ROI? There is NOTHING that Concordia would have to invest in this. All the expense would be paid by Oak Tree. As Helen says, all Concordia would have to do is cash the checks.

What I don't understand is why Paul McCain can't perceive that Logos' success does not have to be at Accordance's failure--which is always the perception I infer in these discussions. It doesn't have to be either/or--there's no reason why it cannot be both/and. I understand that Paul McCain does not like Accordance and is wild about Logos. That's fine. But there's no reason why both companies can't succeed. And to essentially keep the reigns tightened on Luther's works when there are many of us who would purchase it if available for the Accordance platform is simply poor business on McCain & Concordia's part.

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#9 Ed Cross

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 04:10 PM

I own both Accordance and Libronix for the Mac, and I personally am not impressed with the Libronix offering for the Mac. I would however be interested in CPH products for Accordance.

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#10 Greg Terry

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 09:49 PM

.... But there's no reason why both companies can't succeed....


Amen to that, Rick! As we have discussed before, I use Libronix (Windows version in VMware) primarily for reading books, but Accordance is where I do my heavy lifting in my Biblical studies. If it were in my power, I would instantly grant Accordance the rights and resources to publish all Biblical resources that are available. It is a better designed program and we get the best tech support (Thank you, Helen and everyone else) one could possibly want.
Peace!

Greg


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#11 Tom

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 11:01 AM

Thanks Helen.

He can send me details at: paul.mccain@cph.org

Thanks,
PTM


Fascinating (and rare) interaction seen publicly on a forum.
I LOVE it.

Tom
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#12 Outis

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 09:09 PM

I agree with that other guy: Why does it have to be a Libronix vs. Accordance battle? In my experience, you either like Libronix or you hate it. I had Libronix and wondered if Bill Gates himself had designed it (since it was so difficult to use and unstable). But, I know other guys who wouldn't consider anything else. Either way, it still brings us back to the same question: Can't CPH make money from both Logos and Accordance?

Now, I don't foresee a flood of people (i.e. "thousands") clamoring to buy Luther's Works, since many people who use Accordance (just like many of those who use Libronix) are not Lutherans. But, it would make money. I know I'd save up money to buy the stuff. I'm tired of taking down volume [insert Luther's works volume number here] from the shelf.

Is there any way we can get McCain and Helen to sit down around a table with a pitcher of good beer and work this thing out? I'd be happy to buy the beer.

Just a thought.
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#13 Helen Brown

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 12:01 AM

Is there any way we can get McCain and Helen to sit down around a table with a pitcher of good beer and work this thing out? I'd be happy to buy the beer.


:) That's going to be a little difficult as I am currently in the UK for a series of three seminars, and I have never had a beer in my life.

It's also unnecessary as a fruitful discussion off forum is currently underway between our contract manager and Paul McCain.

Thus this thread can certainly be used to express interest in CPH materials, and which ones you are most interested in buying in Accordance, but there is no longer any need to use it to bash our heads together.
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#14 Outis

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 10:24 AM

Thus this thread can certainly be used to express interest in CPH materials, and which ones you are most interested in buying in Accordance


Glad to hear that discussions are underway. And I agree, the forum probably isn't the best place to get that done.

I would save up and *buy* Luther's Works, The Formula of Concord (i.e. the creeds and confessions), and maybe even the LSB. I have the normal ESV study bible for Accordance. And the study notes underwhelmed me. It would be nice to compare them to the LSB.
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#15 Kraig Gilkey

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 02:16 PM

I am VERY heartened and hopeful that CPH will make its electronic resources available in Accordance. Many cheers and thanks to all who have voiced and urged and encouraged.

I would quickly purchase Luther's Works, the new TLSB (The Lutheran Study Bible), the Concordia Commentary series, the Book of Concord (preferably the recent translation by Kolb and Wengret, but I'll take what I can get), and the Concordia Electronic Theological Library.

The TLSB is a new, original set of notes to the ESV, in volume much like the Crossway study bible, but with some new things (like comments from the Church Fathers).
The Concordia Commentary series is a conservative, exegetical commentary based on the original languages. I find it generally more useful than the NICOT/NICNT and even the NIGTC.
The CETL is a 9 part collection of systematics, biblical and doctrinal material spanning the 20th century back to the 16th century, and entry-lay level to graduate seminary level.

All these are already in electronic format except for TLSB which is due out on Oct 31 (Reformation Day for Lutherans).

I have paper copies of all these and a few in Mac-libronix. But I rarely use the libronix because it is foreign, awkward (for me) and just not where I do most of my exegetical and instruction preparation work, which is in Accordance. For me, Accordance has a good form of tunnel vision ... the Bible is always in the center but I can tunnel out to a variety of resources I might need quickly and easily. Libronix has too "flat a playing field". Every work seems to be equivalent to all others and if the links happen to be there it "might" be what I need, and it might not. This "flat field" has me spending too much time on distractions chasing rabbits. Accordance's search and reporting tools are awesome and natural after a little practice. In short, its all right there at my fingertips without distracting extra screens/windows/panes/dialogs/menus and other interface methods. It allows me to refine my workflow, build custom environments for different kinds of studies and have a wealth of really cool resources that turn scholarly black & white into dynamic colorful insights.

Thanks again for all your patience and a wonderful piece of software! God made human intellect for something and this is a good example!

Blessings in the risen Lord!

#16 Paul T. McCain

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 04:01 PM

We are, as Helen reported, "in negotiations" and they are progressing. If it would help, I would gladly go to England, on Accordance's dime, and would drink the beer Helen would not have. :rolleyes:

I doubt that will be necessary, as Greg Ward from Accordance and I are in the midst of fruitful dialogue.

Key for us at Concodia Publishing House is the answer to the question: How many Accordance users would purchase CPH resources if they were available in Accordance?

In order to ascertain that information, please be sure to take our presently running technology survey and be sure to add to the "comment" box that you are an Accordance user and what you would buy and would want to see by way of CPH resources in Accordance.

When you take the survey you are automatically entered in a random drawing to receive a free copy of The Lutheran Study Bible when it is available next October. We are giving away ten copies to survey participants.

Thanks for participating in the survey:

http://www.surveymon...M9QDSFKgw_3d_3d
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#17 jackcav

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 11:01 AM

If you believe that Logos Mac is a viable alternative for the Mac platform, then you haven't attempted to do any serious Bible study with that release. At present, Logos Mac is little more than a library reader. I use Logos Windows extensively and purchased Scholars Gold in the Mac version. The Mac version will not reach feature equality with the Windows version for many years to come, if ever.

If this is your business model, you have a short-sited marketing strategy.

Jack

Actually, Helen, I have pointedly made reference to how we do business with proprietary software vendors, to Accordance staff, several times, as well as to folks who talk to me about this. Those comments are lost in the emotions of those who want CPH resources in Accordance format.

Key for us is reaching critical mass of customers who would actually be willing to pay for our resources in Accordance format.

Now that LOGOS is Mac native it is a difficult decision to consider offering our intellectual property in Accordance format, but if there are thousands of Accordance customers who would commit to purchase CPH intellectual property, and if there are favorable terms from Accordance, not licensing our resources to you and getting paid royalties for it, we might consider it, if we can show a favorable ROI.

But both factors have to be in place for this to be a go.

PTM



#18 Sten-Erik Armitage

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 06:39 PM

Key for us at Concordia Publishing House is the answer to the question: How many Accordance users would purchase CPH resources if they were available in Accordance?


Paul - I have taken the survey and shared my thoughts.

I would happily pay for Luther's Works, the Lutheran Study Bible and the Concordia Commentary series if available on Accordance. Until that happens, I'll relegate myself to the print copies...Which I love, although the search feature is a bit antiquated. :)

#19 Greg Ward

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:11 PM

We are, as Helen reported, "in negotiations" and they are progressing. If it would help, I would gladly go to England, on Accordance's dime, and would drink the beer Helen would not have. :rolleyes:


Paul, I shall gladly hoist a pint with you at a some place and time in the near future! :P

Greg

#20 Rich Shields

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 12:06 PM

I, too, completed the survey, but didn't add that I was an Accordance user. However, I did comment that it would be great to have the resources available natively for the Mac and not locked into one company/format.

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