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ESV crossrefs


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#1 Alistair

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 07:06 AM

Is there a way to strip the letters denoting crossreferences from the ESV text?

I want to be able to search and display the ESV text and read it without all the extraneous letters.

I also want to be able to cut and paste and drag and drop the verses displayed without having to go through the text removing the crossreference letters.

I can see how the crossreference letters are useful, but to me they are a nuisance.

Also, I tried searching for ESV in the forum but it will not allow searches of words with less than four characters - which is a bit of a problem if you are searching, as I was, for "ESV".

~Alistair

#2 Helen Brown

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 08:46 AM

As far as I know, we cannot control the Forum searching, sorry.

But the ESV is easy. Just use Copy As No Superscript (option-command-c) in the Edit menu. You cannot read the text like that, but you can copy it which is where the superscript letter really get in the way as the style is not supported by the clipboard.
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#3 Alistair

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 01:09 PM

But the ESV is easy. Just use Copy As No Superscript (option-command-c) in the Edit menu.


Thanks! That helps.


You cannot read the text like that...


Are there plans to release a "plain text" version of the ESV? No other text that I have includes crossreferences.

Is there a way to format (eg change the colour) of the superscript letters so there are less obvious?

#4 Helen Brown

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 01:42 PM

We did have a plain ESV available before we had this copy option, but have no demand for it since then. Many other texts do have superscript reference markers, and no, there is no way to customize them but you could try a different font for the text display.
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#5 mythrenegade

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 01:08 PM

We did have a plain ESV available before we had this copy option, but have no demand for it since then. Many other texts do have superscript reference markers, and no, there is no way to customize them but you could try a different font for the text display.


I would love to have the "plain" version in addition to the one with all the extraneous characters. Oftentimes I utilize accordance to study a passage in several versions at once in addition to the original texts. The extra characters with the ESV are very distracting.

Joel

#6 Alistair

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 10:18 AM

Having gone away and thought about it, and having read Joel's post, I think I have to say that when I buy a Bible text I expect to get the Bible text. Superscript letters are an addition to the text, and they have their place, but they are an extra feature that I was not expecting.

Helen's workaround is still a workaround, it distracting and time consuming.

As to not having the demand for the plain ESV text, well, I demand it. The ESV is my main reference text. If I want to see the cross references or the footnotes I can have them in a parallel window. I don't want the superscript characters in the text.

~Alistair

#7 Larry Veinott

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 04:38 PM

If the discussion was about a 'print' version, I could understand how it would have to be one or the other- with the superscript letters or without them. In the age of computers, why not give users the choice? Helen said they used to have a plain ESV available, so it wouldn't even involve any extra work to give the users the option to view the text according to their preference.

I would very much appreciate this option, as I, like Alistair, would like to view the ESV without the superscript letters.

#8 David Lang

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 08:44 AM

As Helen pointed out, we have a number of Bible texts with superscripted footnote markers, though the ESV seems to be the only one we get consistent complaints about. This is partly due to the fact that the superscript characters in the ESV are too large. When we did it, we set them to 10 point. In subsequent Bibles, we have gone to 9 point for those characters and it is much less distracting. Another reason we may get more complaints about the ESV is that it is quite popular.

By the way, when Helen wrote that there is no longer any demand for this, she was not aware of just how many requests we do, in fact, get for it. I contacted her immediately after that and we began discussing how to meet that demand. So please, cut her some slack for statements made in ignorance nearly a month ago. :)

With respect to the footnotes being an "addition" to the text rather than a part of it, technically, of course, Alistair is right. The original Greek and Hebrew text of the Bible does not contain these footnote markers. However, most publishers consider the footnotes (and footnote markers) to be an integral part of their translations. They would never release a print edition without them, and believe it or not, some of them might frown on our doing so.

So what is the solution?

First, we could easily re-release the plain ESV text without the footnote markers. This, however, is merely a stopgap measure. If we did this for every Bible translation with superscript characters, it would quickly become unwieldy.

Second, I believe we need to modify the existing ESV so that the superscript characters are smaller. This will make them much less distracting for most folks.

For those who absolutely cannot stomach these characters in the text, the ideal solution would be to let you set a text display preference to hide them, much as we do text and verse highlighting or poetic formatting. Unfortunately, hiding actual characters in the text is more challenging than simply removing various styles or indentions. As I said, we're looking into the possibility, but we need to weigh the costs and benefits of this feature over against those of other features we'd like to add.

Whatever we end up doing, rest assured that we are looking into ways to improve our users' experience with the ESV.

Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
David Lang
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#9 Alistair

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 12:34 PM

Thanks David.

My apologies to all in general and to Helen in particular if my comments appeared harsh: this was not my intention and having re-read my post after having a few days to "cool off" I think I was too blunt and too forceful. Apologies again.

Thank you to David for the informative answer and the promise to actively look iinto the issues and the possible soutions.

Grace and peace to all.

~Alistair

#10 Alistair

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 05:52 AM

While we are in the ESV, I have noticed an error in 1 Kings 13:2

"And the man cried against the altar by the word of the Lordand said..."

There should be a space between "LORD" and "and".

There is the same error in ESV 1.2 and ESVp 1.0p



~Alistair

#11 mythrenegade

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 11:22 AM

You guys absolutely rock!

from today's upgrade notice:
The 6.9.1 upgrade fixes several bugs in 6.9, and allows users to hide the superscript characters in Bible texts.

wooohoooo!

thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou!!!

joel

#12 jarcher

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 08:50 PM

Greetings,

Although I like the ability to suppress the characters it was not a major concern for me. However, I am extremely impressed by your willingness and ability to respond to this request. Very impressive. This alone is one of the reasons I find myself avoiding software from another major player in the market.

Jeremy Archer




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