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#1 Tom Castle

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 09:22 AM

Good morning,
So over the past couple of weeks, I've been evaluating Logos 4. I had never used it before and it was completely foreign. There are some things I don't like and there are some things I love. Two of them bring me to this post.

Can some of you that have used both apps help me by showing me how to achieve similar results in Accordance?

Passage Guide - I absolutely LOVE this feature. How can I setup Accordance to achieve something similar?

Bible Word Study - This is an incredible feature. Especially for someone like me who isn't formally trained in Original Languages. Is there a way to setup Acc to get similar results? The word usage ring is a beautiful thing btw.

I hope this is taken the correct way and the way its meant. This is an honest question with honest intentions to trully evaluate my situation. Thanks for taking the time to help.
In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
**If we will do God's work, in God's way, at God's time, with God's power, we shall have God's blessings!!**

#2 Joel Brown

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 12:33 PM

I'm certainly not the most qualified to answer this, as I am not particularly familiar with Logos' capabilities. However, from what I understand about their Passage Guide and Bible Word Study, they sound very similar to our new revamped Search All. If you do a Search All Scripture with a reference, it will show you all commentaries that include it, all translations, even lexicons or other tools that reference it, all dependent on what groups you search. Likewise, if you do a Search All for a particular English word, it will show you each translation that contains the word, what greek/hebrew words that translate into it, etc. If you do the Search All for the greek word, it will directly give you the dictionary definitions.

If you then look within the english results of your search, say within the NAS95S, and click the Details button to show the Analysis Graph, it will show you how each word is broken down.

I know I'm being a little vague, as I am not sure how specifically you are asking, or what aspects of the Passage Guide or Bible Word Study you still find missing in Accordance. I'm happy to elaborate more specifically. Also, perhaps someone more familiar with Logos 4 would elaborate further.
Joel Brown

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By night: Freelance Trombonist and Private Instructor

#3 Tom Castle

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 01:23 PM

I'm certainly not the most qualified to answer this, as I am not particularly familiar with Logos' capabilities. However, from what I understand about their Passage Guide and Bible Word Study, they sound very similar to our new revamped Search All. If you do a Search All Scripture with a reference, it will show you all commentaries that include it, all translations, even lexicons or other tools that reference it, all dependent on what groups you search. Likewise, if you do a Search All for a particular English word, it will show you each translation that contains the word, what greek/hebrew words that translate into it, etc. If you do the Search All for the greek word, it will directly give you the dictionary definitions.

If you then look within the english results of your search, say within the NAS95S, and click the Details button to show the Analysis Graph, it will show you how each word is broken down.

I know I'm being a little vague, as I am not sure how specifically you are asking, or what aspects of the Passage Guide or Bible Word Study you still find missing in Accordance. I'm happy to elaborate more specifically. Also, perhaps someone more familiar with Logos 4 would elaborate further.


Thanks Joel. I'm asking completely from a place of ignorance. I haven't used some of those features very much.
In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
**If we will do God's work, in God's way, at God's time, with God's power, we shall have God's blessings!!**

#4 Helen Brown

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 02:13 PM

For the word study you can simply search for a word in Accordance, in any of the Key number texts such as KJVS, and then open Details: Analysis Graph or one of the other graphs to see the breakdown of the original words used. They may not be as pretty as Logos, but they are certainly functional.

Please take time to watch some podcasts on the features that interest you and are relevant such as Details, and Key number texts.
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#5 jackcav

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 02:30 PM

Good morning,
So over the past couple of weeks, I've been evaluating Logos 4. I had never used it before and it was completely foreign. There are some things I don't like and there are some things I love. Two of them bring me to this post.


Can some of you that have used both apps help me by showing me how to achieve similar results in Accordance?

Passage Guide - I absolutely LOVE this feature. How can I setup Accordance to achieve something similar?

Bible Word Study - This is an incredible feature. Especially for someone like me who isn't formally trained in Original Languages. Is there a way to setup Acc to get similar results? The word usage ring is a beautiful thing btw.

I hope this is taken the correct way and the way its meant. This is an honest question with honest intentions to trully evaluate my situation. Thanks for taking the time to help.


Tom,

I am more familiar with L4 than i am with Accordance 9, but I will attempt to provide some assistance. If anything I say is unclear, please ask, and I will attempt to clarify. Logos and Accordance approach Bible Study from very different philosophies, but both are equally good in my opinion. Those of us who are fortunate enough to own both are indeed blessed.

Accordance does not have anything just like the PG, but you can probably achieve similar results though Groups and Search All. I have watched the podcasts, but have not used them very much yet. I do believe they will produce the results you desire. You need to watch the podcasts and then play with them until you become familiar with procedures and capabilities.

Helen has given you a better answer concerning BWS than I ever could.

Edited by jackcav, 21 October 2010 - 02:32 PM.


#6 Tom Castle

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 04:12 PM

Tom,

I am more familiar with L4 than i am with Accordance 9, but I will attempt to provide some assistance. If anything I say is unclear, please ask, and I will attempt to clarify. Logos and Accordance approach Bible Study from very different philosophies, but both are equally good in my opinion. Those of us who are fortunate enough to own both are indeed blessed.

Accordance does not have anything just like the PG, but you can probably achieve similar results though Groups and Search All. I have watched the podcasts, but have not used them very much yet. I do believe they will produce the results you desire. You need to watch the podcasts and then play with them until you become familiar with procedures and capabilities.

Helen has given you a better answer concerning BWS than I ever could.

Thanks Jack. I too own both (right now). Which is the reason for my questions and reviewing of L4. I want to make sure I want to keep it before my 30 days are up (I currently own the Platinum version and quite a few extras already). I love a lot of things in L4 but, resources aside for the moment, if I can do the same things in Acc 9 without the extra expense, it seems it would be good stewardship.

Helen - I've watched the videos but just haven't played with the features enough to be 'top of mind' aware of the best way to do some of these things.

Edited by Tom Castle, 21 October 2010 - 04:13 PM.

In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
**If we will do God's work, in God's way, at God's time, with God's power, we shall have God's blessings!!**

#7 mikes

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:21 PM

It would be great to know what you like about the passage guide

I use saved workspaces to skip the passage guide and go directly to the resources I know I like. I'd go back and take a look at that podcast in particular.

Search All for a group = Collection section for a passage guide and/or Commentary section of passage guide
Search all does a better job the the passage guide at giving you what you want to find relevant resources (Groups in accordance = collections in L4). For example, for a term like "righteousness" in L4 and you'll get 1000s of irrelevant hits and have to swim through these results to find any actual dictionary/encyclopedia titled article with Righteousness in it.

You can create a saved workspace with various Search All for groups that mimic a passage guide for you.

The bible word study is cute, graphic, but lacks the capability and accuracy of accordance. Again, if you could highlight what in particular you like about it, then we could help you understand the path in accordance.

#8 Tom Castle

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:43 PM

It would be great to know what you like about the passage guide

I use saved workspaces to skip the passage guide and go directly to the resources I know I like. I'd go back and take a look at that podcast in particular.

Search All for a group = Collection section for a passage guide and/or Commentary section of passage guide
Search all does a better job the the passage guide at giving you what you want to find relevant resources (Groups in accordance = collections in L4). For example, for a term like "righteousness" in L4 and you'll get 1000s of irrelevant hits and have to swim through these results to find any actual dictionary/encyclopedia titled article with Righteousness in it.

You can create a saved workspace with various Search All for groups that mimic a passage guide for you.

The bible word study is cute, graphic, but lacks the capability and accuracy of accordance. Again, if you could highlight what in particular you like about it, then we could help you understand the path in accordance.


Thanks for posting Mike. Very interesting stuff.
PG Likes: Well I set up the PG to have my 5-6 fav commentaries, search cross refs in The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, TOPICS!! (really like this feature), Parallel Passages, Biblical People - Places - Things.
BWS: Is very graphic... I've been experimenting with the Details button in Acc9 but I'm not finding the same amount of info as easily as the BWS in L4. For example, in L4, I 'right' click on a word, select BWS and the window populates. The translation rings give me a very quick overview of how the word is interpreted... I can select Lemma (just above it) and get the transliteration and pronunciation (Again, I'm not formally trained in original languages)

Does this help with the kind of things I'm doing? Also, would like to reiterate... I am NOT slamming Accordance. I've been a casual Acc user for a long time. I'm just now getting "INTO" it heavily and decided to have a look at L4 for comparison's sake. There is a lot of money on the table that I'd just as soon spend with the Accordance folks if I can do the same 'types' of things. I don't necessarily expect everything to work the same. I understand they are two different products.
In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
**If we will do God's work, in God's way, at God's time, with God's power, we shall have God's blessings!!**

#9 Tom Castle

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:58 PM

I just watched the new podcasts.. I missed them somehow. I also missed the 'My Groups' feature etc. I am definitely intrigued... Gonna spend some time doing some setup. Thanks everyone so far.... I can still use some pointers.
In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
**If we will do God's work, in God's way, at God's time, with God's power, we shall have God's blessings!!**

#10 Fr. Rusty

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:58 PM

Just a thought: Perhaps you could get an appointment with Helen or one of the other folks at Accordance, do a screen share, and by phone and screen, go through some work flow "live", together.
This would let you ask questions about results, capabilities, as you work through a flow of thought/results- what next/results etc.

Hope my thought is not imposing anything on staff, but it might be helpful in this case.

Grace and Peace,

Rusty+

P.S. If you go to the blog section, David Lang has some excellent articles on using Accordance that are quite helpful.
I use these as well as Dr. J's Podcasts.

Edited by Fr. Rusty, 21 October 2010 - 08:05 PM.


#11 Tom Castle

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 09:15 PM

Just a thought: Perhaps you could get an appointment with Helen or one of the other folks at Accordance, do a screen share, and by phone and screen, go through some work flow "live", together.
This would let you ask questions about results, capabilities, as you work through a flow of thought/results- what next/results etc.

Hope my thought is not imposing anything on staff, but it might be helpful in this case.

Grace and Peace,

Rusty+

P.S. If you go to the blog section, David Lang has some excellent articles on using Accordance that are quite helpful.
I use these as well as Dr. J's Podcasts.


I apologize if I've offended anyone by making this comparison... It seems as though I have... it was not my intention.
In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
**If we will do God's work, in God's way, at God's time, with God's power, we shall have God's blessings!!**

#12 Fr. Rusty

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 10:06 PM

I apologize if I've offended anyone by making this comparison... It seems as though I have... it was not my intention.


Dear Tom: I certainly would not think so.
I am fairly new to Accordance and was recently looking at both platforms as well. ( I have a small logos library, as well a couple of large Windows platforms )
The users at Logos and Accordance were both incredibly helpful, and I found none to be offended by my questions.

I personally find Accordance to be faster, smoother and actually more accurate.

More than that though, I seem to be able to "get at" what I am looking for without as much distraction.
The "Search All" function is incredible as one can clearly define "what" they want an "all search" to look in.

Zones are incredibly useful.

Being able to have several "Workspaces" set up and tied together is really helpful, especially when one can use external monitors with them, it's like laying out texts on a long table, but having everything "work with you, as you work".

There are no better Biblical maps to be had anywhere I can find.

Lastly, two things:
1. The graphs let us decide how we want to see the information : pie charts, bar charts, hits per 1000, by strongs numbers, general concordance, so forth and so on.

2. Speed, nothing is slow, results are almost instant.

Ok, I hope my post did not offend, if it did, please know it was Not my intention, I just wanted to be as helpful as folks have been to me, so please, forgive me if my post was not helpful.

This "is" incredible software, has a little learning curve, but incredible.
Not the best looking race car in the race, but she is stably running way ahead of the pack.

Grace and Peace,

Rusty+

P.S. I just thought of something.
There are lots of "screenshots" somewhere in these forums that show different setups, some of which had some of the details graphs showing.
These might be helpful to you as well.
They did help me to see what was possible, some great setups to look at.

Hope this helps.

R+

Edited by Fr. Rusty, 21 October 2010 - 10:09 PM.


#13 Tom Castle

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 11:01 PM

Rusty,
Thank you for taking the time to post. Everyone that has posted has been very helpful. I have had quite the night of education.

I would like to say a special thank you to Helen Brown. She went WAY above the call of duty and spent some time with me. It was extremely useful and helpful.

I'm looking forward to becoming an Accordance power user... whatever my hand findeth to do, do it with all my might... right? :D

Grace and Peace.
In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
**If we will do God's work, in God's way, at God's time, with God's power, we shall have God's blessings!!**

#14 Fr. Rusty

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 11:33 PM

Rusty,
Thank you for taking the time to post. Everyone that has posted has been very helpful. I have had quite the night of education.

I would like to say a special thank you to Helen Brown. She went WAY above the call of duty and spent some time with me. It was extremely useful and helpful.

I'm looking forward to becoming an Accordance power user... whatever my hand findeth to do, do it with all my might... right? :D

Grace and Peace.


Excellent and, Welcome aboard!
Yes, Helen is incredible. (understatement of the year)
I believe you will find the whole staff to be of the same mindset as well.

Seems "Equipping the Saints" is a vocation for them, not just a job.


Grace and Peace,

Rusty+

#15 jackcav

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 09:21 AM

I'm looking forward to becoming an Accordance power user... whatever my hand findeth to do, do it with all my might... right? :D



From this, I assume that you have made a decision. Having read your various posts, I felt that you would be more content with Accordance, if you only intend to invest in one application.

#16 Zaldana

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 02:48 PM

Some excellent points have been made here. I like the "one-click" options of Logos 4; I like the versatility and personalization options of Accordance 9. One thing Accordance definitely can improve on is the syntax graphs (new in Accordance 9). Logos 4 offers Cascadia, Lexham, and Opentext versions of syntax graphs, and I have found them essential for passage analyses in translation. However, everything else Logos accomplishes can be duplicated in Accordance with the use of Workspaces (I have created a "passage guide" and "exegetical guide" Workspace myself, and can email you the setup if you are interested in some examples or resource integration ideas). The volume of Logos materials, admittedly, exceeds that of Accordance, but I am undecided in terms of the quality of each program's available texts.

The chief merit of Accordance has always been its speed. Logos is simply too slow for the kind of efficiency I am able to achieve with Accordance. Couple this with the excellent User Import options, My Notes, Timeline, Atlas, ease of teaching with Accordance, superb technical support... well, you get the point. Since Accordance 8-9, I believe, and my colleagues would attest to this, that what we have here is simply a better product.

Best,

-- Z

Edited by Zaldana, 06 November 2010 - 02:50 PM.

— Zaldaña

#17 RichardHendricks

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 07:21 PM

I'm interested in your "passage guide" and "exegetical guide" workspaces. Please email me at richard.w.hendricks@gmail.com.

Some excellent points have been made here. I like the "one-click" options of Logos 4; I like the versatility and personalization options of Accordance 9. One thing Accordance definitely can improve on is the syntax graphs (new in Accordance 9). Logos 4 offers Cascadia, Lexham, and Opentext versions of syntax graphs, and I have found them essential for passage analyses in translation. However, everything else Logos accomplishes can be duplicated in Accordance with the use of Workspaces (I have created a "passage guide" and "exegetical guide" Workspace myself, and can email you the setup if you are interested in some examples or resource integration ideas). The volume of Logos materials, admittedly, exceeds that of Accordance, but I am undecided in terms of the quality of each program's available texts.

The chief merit of Accordance has always been its speed. Logos is simply too slow for the kind of efficiency I am able to achieve with Accordance. Couple this with the excellent User Import options, My Notes, Timeline, Atlas, ease of teaching with Accordance, superb technical support... well, you get the point. Since Accordance 8-9, I believe, and my colleagues would attest to this, that what we have here is simply a better product.

Best,

-- Z



#18 Fr. Rusty

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:19 PM

I'm interested in your "passage guide" and "exegetical guide" workspaces. Please email me at richard.w.hendricks@gmail.com.


I too am interested in the passage/exegetical guides- rustymatheny141@me.com.

Thanks

#19 Ryan Gustason

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 11:21 PM

I'd be interested in your setup too. Perhaps you could post them on the forums, or a blog or something?

Blessings,

Ryan

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#20 Zaldana

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 10:21 AM

Several people have been asking about the set-ups I mentioned that would mimic what Logos 4 does with Passage Guides and Exegetical Guides. I am attaching sample screenshots of Workspaces in Accordance 9.3 that may be helpful as you fine-tune your own workflow ("Passage Guide Workspace" and "Gk Exegetical Guide" [Hb workspace would be the same]). In essence, each of the resources/tabs/zones is linked, so that all reflect changes made to the main search tab (make sure you use the recycle feature, if necessary, to avoid multiple windows with amplifying a selection). I then save the Workspace and add it to my Favorites section for quick access. Each workspace will look different depending on the modules you own. The flexibility and speed once you get this going is excellent!

Hope that helps,

-- Zaldaña


I'd be interested in your setup too. Perhaps you could post them on the forums, or a blog or something?

Blessings,

Ryan


— Zaldaña




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