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#1 Fr. Rusty Matheny

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 12:43 AM

Dear all: I could use some help/advice.

I have used the TDNT Unabridged as well as Abridged for a long time.
Years ago I noticed that most other Lexicons referenced the TDNT in one way or another, thus, they became part of my study/research life.
I have them in both hardcopy as well as in digital domains.

However, for the last couple of years or so, I see more and more references to the BDAG as well as Halot and usually see them bundled together for sales.

Is the TDNT now obsolete?
BDAG better, more accurate, not as biased as TDNT?

Is the difficulty of usage concerning this resource (BDAG/HALOT) in the same category as TDNT for one with just basic Original Language skills ?
TDNT has been very useful to me, but is not fast, I have to work at it.
I have looked at several Screenshots, they only help me so much, but from them BDAG seems very similar in presentation form with TDNT.
Paid reviews only help so much.

So to this group I ask these questions, due to both advanced scholarship and students being represented.

Lastly, are these the best Lexicons available and can anyone give a review of the leanings/Bias? ( this is not a negative question, everyone comes to study "from somewhere" theologically.

Thanks for your time.

Rusty+

#2 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 08:03 AM

Dear all: I could use some help/advice.

I have used the TDNT Unabridged as well as Abridged for a long time.
Years ago I noticed that most other Lexicons referenced the TDNT in one way or another, thus, they became part of my study/research life...

Is the TDNT now obsolete? BDAG better, more accurate, not as biased as TDNT?
Is the difficulty of usage concerning this resource (BDAG/HALOT) in the same category as TDNT for one with just basic Original Language skills ?

...Lastly, are these the best Lexicons available and can anyone give a review of the leanings/Bias? ( this is not a negative question, everyone comes to study "from somewhere" theologically.

Thanks for your time.

Rusty+


Hi, Rusty!

TDNT/TDOT have some great scholarship in them and very complete data for each period. However, their conclusions are generally dubious. The linguistic theory underlying them has been shown wanting [e.g. that a word's single appearance carries the sum total of its etymological and historical weight]. Many scholars are now avoiding them for that reason [or just carefully picking and choosing what they use].

BDAG/HALOT (as well as LS) are not as ambitious, but their articles are more trustworthy. In part, that's because they don't try to draw as many conclusions. Both are considered scholarly standards. BDB Complete offers numerous hypertext links to other material available in Accordance.

NIDNTT/NIDOTTE have very good articles which can be easily accessed by those with little or no knowledge of the original languages. Though too conservative to be considered a scholarly standard in universities, they are my wordbooks of choice. They offer me information as well as demonstrating how to communicate it to English-only users. Lately, I have found myself consulting BDAG/HALOT, then NIDNTT/NIDOTTE, and avoiding TDNT/TDOT entirely.

However, everyone has their own preferences—and mine may not be the same as yours. I've attached two screen shots, one Hebrew and one Greek, each with four lexicons open to them same article. These should give you some insight into their basic similarities and differences.

[Edit: figured I might as well go ahead and attach another screen shot. This one is BDB vs. BDB Complete.]

Attached Files


Edited by Timothy Jenney, 18 January 2011 - 08:09 AM.

Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer

 

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#3 Fr. Rusty Matheny

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 08:44 AM

Hi, Rusty!

TDNT/TDOT have some great scholarship in them and very complete data for each period. However, their conclusions are generally dubious. The linguistic theory underlying them has been shown wanting [e.g. that a word's single appearance carries the sum total of its etymological and historical weight]. Many scholars are now avoiding them for that reason [or just carefully picking and choosing what they use].

BDAG/HALOT (as well as LS) are not as ambitious, but their articles are more trustworthy. In part, that's because they don't try to draw as many conclusions. Both are considered scholarly standards. BDB Complete offers numerous hypertext links to other material available in Accordance.

NIDNTT/NIDOTTE have very good articles which can be easily accessed by those with little or no knowledge of the original languages. Though too conservative to be considered a scholarly standard in universities, they are my wordbooks of choice. They offer me information as well as demonstrating how to communicate it to English-only users. Lately, I have found myself consulting BDAG/HALOT, then NIDNTT/NIDOTTE, and avoiding TDNT/TDOT entirely.

However, everyone has their own preferences—and mine may not be the same as yours. I've attached two screen shots, one Hebrew and one Greek, each with four lexicons open to them same article. These should give you some insight into their basic similarities and differences.

[Edit: figured I might as well go ahead and attach another screen shot. This one is BDB vs. BDB Complete.]


Thank you Dr. J. :
Those screen shots were actually more helpful than others I have seen, I appreciate it.
Conservative is good and Etymology is important to me ( Actually quite fascinating ).

You have, as usual, been very kind and informative.

Blessings,

R+

#4 Fr. Rusty Matheny

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 09:28 AM

Dr. J: I have Colin Browns work in hard copy at my office-Original series.
To be honest, have not used them nearly as much in recent years as I have most things in my software. ( keep my reference books in case of computer failure ).
Do you think the updates to this work make it worth buying for computer work?
I do not have BDAG/Halot at all.

New Greek text purchase: Greek Text- NA-27 ?

Thanks Dr. J, Sorry for being a pain.

R+

#5 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 12:20 PM

Dr. J: I have Colin Browns work in hard copy at my office-Original series.
To be honest, have not used them nearly as much in recent years as I have most things in my software. ( keep my reference books in case of computer failure ).
Do you think the updates to this work make it worth buying for computer work?
I do not have BDAG/Halot at all.

New Greek text purchase: Greek Text- NA-27 ?

Thanks Dr. J, Sorry for being a pain.

R+


Rusty,

Thanks! You are certainly not a pain. I really enjoy answering users' questions. That's true especially when they are here in the forum, as others listen in on our conversations—and profit by them!

I gradually realized that I wasn't using my hardbacks at all, unless they were not available in Accordance. Consequently, I began selling them off, one at a time, or giving them away to particularly hungry students. I then replaced them, as finances allowed, with Accordance modules.

I'd encourage you to reflect on whether you haven't been using Brown's work because you didn't find it useful—or just that it wasn't as handy because you didn't own it in Accordance. Your response would help shape your purchasing decision.

As far as a new Gk text, no, I wouldn't recommend the GNT-NA27. (Can I say that here?) The NA28 will be out before too long—and there are far better textual apparatuses available now. I'm going to assume you have the GNT-T already (If not, purchase it first). Then add a good textual apparatus or commentary (CNTTS, Comfort or Metzger; see podcast #29 [both parts] for reviews).

Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer

 

Mac: Early 2011 17" MBP (8,3), 2.3 GHz Quad core, 16 GB RAM, Mercury 6G 480 SSD + 1.5 TB HD, OSX 10.10, Yosemite

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#6 Fr. Rusty Matheny

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 12:43 PM

Rusty,

Thanks! You are certainly not a pain. I really enjoy answering users' questions. That's true especially when they are here in the forum, as others listen in on our conversations—and profit by them!

I gradually realized that I wasn't using my hardbacks at all, unless they were not available in Accordance. Consequently, I began selling them off, one at a time, or giving them away to particularly hungry students. I then replaced them, as finances allowed, with Accordance modules.

I'd encourage you to reflect on whether you haven't been using Brown's work because you didn't find it useful—or just that it wasn't as handy because you didn't own it in Accordance. Your response would help shape your purchasing decision.

As far as a new Gk text, no, I wouldn't recommend the GNT-NA27. (Can I say that here?) The NA28 will be out before too long—and there are far better textual apparatuses available now. I'm going to assume you have the GNT-T already (If not, purchase it first). Then add a good textual apparatus or commentary (CNTTS, Comfort or Metzger; see podcast #29 [both parts] for reviews).



I certainly think there are a lot of my hardcover resources I am not using as much anymore simply because they are not in Accordance, others do not get used because I am using them in Accordance.

I have to admit though, it is hard for me to embrace selling my Books, they are in some ways, like old friends, and often opening them reminds me of times of great discovery and closeness to the Lord.

Perhaps just plain silly, certainly not practical thinking, but something I have struggled with.

My office is full to overflowing, and much the same at home- thus it would be very practical for me to sell and repurchase in Accordance, where they would in all probability get used to greater degree.

Must ponder and pray on it more-smile.

Thanks for the advice on the NA-27.

Will look at the other resources ( and Podcast ) and let you know what I purchased for now.

Again, thanks for the investment of your time and thoughts.

Grace and Peace,

Rusty+

#7 Rod Decker

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 02:12 PM

Tim's reply is on target. TDNT has lots of data, but its methodology is deficient. For NT study, BDAG is indispensable and worth every penny of the $150 (list). It would be worth it at double the price. There is no other resource remotely comparable to the wealth of info contained in it. It is not perfect, but it's the best available. Perhaps you'd find my page devoted to BDAG helpful; it contains a variety of resources including an early draft of the "how to use BDAG" essay that appears in my Koine Reader. You can find it here: NTResources.com/bdag.html
Rodney J. Decker, ThD
Professor of NT & Greek
Baptist Bible Seminary
NTResources.com/blog/

#8 Fr. Rusty Matheny

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 12:43 AM

Tim's reply is on target. TDNT has lots of data, but its methodology is deficient. For NT study, BDAG is indispensable and worth every penny of the $150 (list). It would be worth it at double the price. There is no other resource remotely comparable to the wealth of info contained in it. It is not perfect, but it's the best available. Perhaps you'd find my page devoted to BDAG helpful; it contains a variety of resources including an early draft of the "how to use BDAG" essay that appears in my Koine Reader. You can find it here: NTResources.com/bdag.html



Thank you Professor Decker: Read your review, it is helpful. ( Liked: sell your car if you have to! -smile)
Also reading around on your blog, interesting and informative.

Thanks again.

Rusty+




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