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Another participle search query


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#1 Rod Decker

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 06:02 PM

I'd like to discover the number of verses in the NT which have 2 participles (and only 2); then the same with 3, 4, etc. My inclination was to search as follows (with search set to the verse level; GNT-T):

[verb participle] <WITHIN 20 Words> [verb participle]

While that does indeed flag verses with multiple participles (1711 of them), it hi-lites the first two, but some have more than 2 (e.g. Matt 1:20). I then tried extending the search as follows to look for 3, but the same 1711 verses are found, but it still flags all those that have only 2.

[verb participle] <WITHIN 20 Words> [verb participle] <WITHIN 20 Words> [verb participle]

I'm stumped. Any suggestions?
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#2 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 06:49 PM

I'd like to discover the number of verses in the NT which have 2 participles (and only 2); then the same with 3, 4, etc. My inclination was to search as follows (with search set to the verse level; GNT-T):

[verb participle] <WITHIN 20 Words> [verb participle]

While that does indeed flag verses with multiple participles (1711 of them), it hi-lites the first two, but some have more than 2 (e.g. Matt 1:20). I then tried extending the search as follows to look for 3, but the same 1711 verses are found, but it still flags all those that have only 2.

[verb participle] <WITHIN 20 Words> [verb participle] <WITHIN 20 Words> [verb participle]

I'm stumped. Any suggestions?


Interesting challenge, Rod!

what about using the construct window to specify the first participle must be within 20 words by the second, and the third within 20 words of the second? [see screenshot] I get 514 verses.

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#3 Rod Decker

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 07:02 PM

Interesting challenge, Rod!


OK, thanks. But I have two questions: 1. Why doesn't a "regular" search using "within" produce the same results as the construct search? Aren't they asking for the same thing? and 2. Your construct can be extended (by trial and error) to find the v. with the most participles (see below), but it does not enable finding out how many verses have, say, 2 (and only 2) participles since it lists all verses that have *at least* 2. I want a list with *only* 2.

Looks like the vs with the most participles in the NT (6) is 1 Cor 7:30 καὶ οἱ κλαίοντες ὡς μὴ κλαίοντες καὶ οἱ χαίροντες ὡς μὴ χαίροντες καὶ οἱ ἀγοράζοντες ὡς μὴ κατέχοντες. And there is only one such vs in NT.

There is one vs in LXX that has 9 participles! 2 Macc 9:25 πρὸς δὲ τούτοις κατανοῶν τοὺς παρακειμένους δυνάστας καὶ γειτνιῶντας τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῖς καιροῖς ἐπέχοντας καὶ προσδοκῶντας τὸ ἀποβησόμενον, ἀναδέδειχα τὸν υἱὸν Ἀντίοχον βασιλέα, ὃν πολλάκις ἀνατρέχων εἰς τὰς ἐπάνω σατραπείας τοῖς πλείστοις ὑμῶν παρεκατετιθέμην καὶ συνίστων γέγραφα δὲ πρὸς αὐτὸν τὰ ὑπογεγραμμένα.
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#4 jpkang

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:30 AM

1. Why doesn't a "regular" search using "within" produce the same results as the construct search? Aren't they asking for the same thing?


I don't think they are...

Words (columns) in construct searches are sequential and distinct, so a construct will only return results if all columns and conditions find matches.

I'm pretty sure that X <WITHIN n1 Words> Y <WITHIN n2 Words> Z (etc.) is not evaluated in sequential word order. Such expressions are evaluated in steps, so that if the first condition (X <WITHIN n1 Word> Y) is true, it then looks to see if there is a word Z within n2 words--and here is my guess at the crucial difference with Construct searches--in any direction from Y, which could very well include X (e.g., if X, Y, and Z are all the same type of word).

Or it might be that Accordance evaluates (X <WITHIN n1+n2 Words> Z) first and then looks to see if there is a matching Y n2 words before or after Z?

Perhaps Helen or someone can weigh in definitively.
J. P. Kang, Ph.D. (Bible)

#5 Helen Brown

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 03:38 AM

In the Search window such complex expressions are evaluated sequentially unless they are bracketed. Therefore X <WITHIN n1 Words> Y <WITHIN n2 Words> Z will look for X <WITHIN n1 Words> Y and then take that result and look for it <WITHIN n2 Words>. This has always been a property of Accordance searches which makes repeated searches for the same word or tag unreliable past 2 repeats.

However, you can use the Construct window reliably, and you can use the Contents command to find, for example, verses with two participles but not more: [CONTENTS GNTn2] <NOT> [CONTENTS GNTn3].
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#6 Rod Decker

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:59 AM

In the Search window such complex expressions are evaluated sequentially unless they are bracketed. Therefore X <WITHIN n1 Words> Y <WITHIN n2 Words> Z will look for X <WITHIN n1 Words> Y and then take that result and look for it <WITHIN n2 Words>. This has always been a property of Accordance searches which makes repeated searches for the same word or tag unreliable past 2 repeats.

However, you can use the Construct window reliably, and you can use the Contents command to find, for example, verses with two participles but not more: [CONTENTS GNTn2] <NOT> [CONTENTS GNTn3].


Thanks JP and Helen. Those explanations make sense. What I don't quite understand, Helen, is your search syntax. What is "n2" and "n3"? Are those parts of window names? (That' my guess based on the "GNT.") And if so, to what windows do they refer? Ones obtained via the Construct search that Dr J outlined? Or something else? Maybe it's just too early this morning... (But then I see that your reply was posted even earlier!) I'll work on this some more after class later this morning.
Rodney J. Decker, ThD
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#7 Helen Brown

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:34 AM

n2 meant a GNT search result of a Construct looking for 2 participles, n3 similarly.

My body is now with my heart, so it's not nearly as early for me as it is for you.
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#8 Rod Decker

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 09:39 PM

My body is now with my heart, so it's not nearly as early for me as it is for you.


Ah! So you're in England? (Or Israel?) Enjoy your stay.

Thanks to all of you for help figuring this out. I think I've got all the pieces working. I just posted a summary on my blog with all the stats for those interested along with a summary of how to find them in Accordance. There is one verse in the NT with 6 participles (1 Cor 7:30) and one in LXX with 9 (2 Macc 9:25).
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#9 Dick Roberts

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 02:29 AM

Won't this construct work?

verb/participle in column one
verb/participle in column two
verb/participle in column three
(within 20 words between each pair of columns)
NOT in the last verb/participle column

this would find verses with two ptcps, but not three
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#10 Mike Thigpen

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 02:14 PM

The 20 word limit is not needed if the search parameter is set to every verse. By placing the limit there are 24 verses that are missed in the search: Matt 4:21; 19:28; Mark 13:11; Luke 2:48; 7:24; 11:7; Acts 3:12; 12:17; 21:24; 21:28; 22:30; Rom 7:3; 2 Cor 3:7; 1 Thess 2:13; Heb 4:3; 5:12; 1 John 5:6; 2 John 12; Rev 3:12; 12:10; 14:7; 18:2; 20:12; and 22:18. These all have only 2 participles but the participles are not within 20 words of each other. Running the constructs without the limit will find a total of 1218 verses (2436 participles).

Mike

#11 Rod Decker

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:31 PM

Won't this construct work?

verb/participle in column one
verb/participle in column two
verb/participle in column three
(within 20 words between each pair of columns)
NOT in the last verb/participle column

this would find verses with two ptcps, but not three


No, it doesn't seem to. Using that search will include, e.g., Matt 1:20 which has 3 participles. See also Mike's note below and my comment.
Rodney J. Decker, ThD
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#12 Rod Decker

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 08:06 PM

The 20 word limit is not needed if the search parameter is set to every verse. By placing the limit there are 24 verses that are missed in the search: Matt 4:21; 19:28; Mark 13:11; Luke 2:48; 7:24; 11:7; Acts 3:12; 12:17; 21:24; 21:28; 22:30; Rom 7:3; 2 Cor 3:7; 1 Thess 2:13; Heb 4:3; 5:12; 1 John 5:6; 2 John 12; Rev 3:12; 12:10; 14:7; 18:2; 20:12; and 22:18. These all have only 2 participles but the participles are not within 20 words of each other. Running the constructs without the limit will find a total of 1218 verses (2436 participles).

Mike


Right you are Mike. I should have checked the 20 word limit; it was a guess that I thought would be large enough. Also true that it works w/o any "within" limit--something I didn't realize would work. Thanks.
Rodney J. Decker, ThD
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