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Advanced NT Greek Grammars

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#1 peguard

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 05:32 AM

Accordance has most of the advanced hebrew grammars available today but it's difficult to understand how we lack most of the advanced grammars for Greek studies.

I suggest the following ones in order of importance:

Blass-Debrunner-Funk, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament
J.H. Moulton, A Grammar of New Testament Greek, in four volumes.
M. Zerwick, Biblical Greek

These grammars are widely used in NT research and I think they will be gladly welcome by students and scholars as well.

Hopeful in improvement on this subject.

Pedro Guardiola

Edited by peguard, 14 January 2012 - 05:35 AM.

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#2 Julie Falling

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 06:28 AM

I, too, would like to see one of those grammars in Accordance. BDF & Moulton-Turner were both recommended to me by my Greek professor. I'm really resisting buying any hard copies of books if I know they're in the Accordance pipeline.

Thanks,
Julie

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#3 Rick Bennett

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 09:20 AM

Long story short, there are difficulties in acquiring e-texts for these. And, even when we do acquire an e-text and work out a license agreement with the publisher (for those that require it) grammars are notoriously difficult to prepare. We still want to get these, and probably will sometime in the future, but they are not a high priority right now with everything else we've got going on.

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#4 Joe Weaks

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:24 PM

Blass-Debruner-Funk especially a shame to not have.
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#5 Robb Brunansky

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:00 PM

I'd post a hundred times in favor of BDF in Accordance, but that would probably get me banned :) I strongly support adding BDF and making it high priority.
Soli Deo Gloria,
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#6 Julie Falling

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:35 PM

I did a web search for the series started by Moulton and found that, for all intents and purposes, it is out of print. It is, however, available from Logos (which I don't own).

BDF, from what I've read, is in need of an update since most Greek students today don't start with Classical Greek, but with Koine. Would it be incomprehensible for someone who has had 4 years of Koine? Should I just give in and purchase a hard copy, or would it just make my head explode?

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#7 Joe Weaks

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:57 PM

BDF, from what I've read, is in need of an update since most Greek students today don't start with Classical Greek, but with Koine. Would it be incomprehensible for someone who has had 4 years of Koine? Should I just give in and purchase a hard copy, or would it just make my head explode?

Julie,
You are correct that it is written from the perspective 'back in the day' where you first learned Greek—not just learned the peculiar subset of of Greek found in the NT. I guess I liked it for that reason... I studied Classical Greek in college, and then NT Greek in seminary.
As I look through the copy on my desk here, you are reminded: "a beginning grammar it is not". However, as an advanced grammar, it is in no way unintelligible to I-only-have-studied-NTGreek scholars. But, that said, you should keep in mind that the primary purpose of BDF is to explain the ways in which NT Greek is unique from other Greek. If that does not intersect with your research interest, then it has little value.
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#8 James Tucker

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:58 PM

BDF, from what I've read, is in need of an update since most Greek students today don't start with Classical Greek, but with Koine. Would it be incomprehensible for someone who has had 4 years of Koine? Should I just give in and purchase a hard copy, or would it just make my head explode?


It's a shame that we've lost the appreciation for the pedagogical value that learning the dialects of classical Greek brings to the mastery of Koine. It wasn't until I had to write classical compositions that I could truly say I knew (speak, read, write, think) Greek. BDF is in invaluable resource, that should grace the shelves of all who are serious about mastering Greek.

#9 Julie Falling

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 03:08 PM

Thanks for the input. I, too, wish that we still had the kind of education that started with Latin in elementary school, then moved onto Greek in high school and college. I had Latin in high school and loved it. I have loved studying Greek, both for the sake of the language itself, but, more importantly, so that I can understand my NT better and not just have to take somebody else's word for everything. I think I'll probably go ahead and get BDF sometime this summer.

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#10 Jonathan C. Borland

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 07:10 AM

Not having BDF is a huge deficiency of Accordance. (There are others, but we understand that priorities and the business model always determine the rate of filling these obvious gaps.) BDF is the sister tool of BDAG which so frequently refers to it. I have the hard copy of both and the module of BDAG. Obviously there has to be a list of priorities. But sometimes certain academic resources have to be made available not for the profit they bring the company but for the legitimacy they provide to a software company that would aspire to be designated academic. BTW, I think BDF, as the most recognized academic NT grammar, would eventually bring in a good profit for Accordance!

Just a personal note: it is somewhat discouraging to hear that the preparation of a certain resource, no matter how valuable or even if recognized as das Standardwerk in its field, is not pursued simply due to the intensive labor involved. The impression is that Accordance takes its monopoly-like position in the Mac market for granted at the expense of its faithful customers who have already committed substantial resources to one Bible software and have no option to turn elsewhere without great financial loss. The fact is I like Accordance and don't want to turn elsewhere, but the undesirable impression remains nonetheless.

#11 Rick Bennett

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 07:37 AM

Not having BDF is a huge deficiency of Accordance. (There are others, but we understand that priorities and the business model always determine the rate of filling these obvious gaps.) BDF is the sister tool of BDAG which so frequently refers to it. I have the hard copy of both and the module of BDAG. Obviously there has to be a list of priorities. But sometimes certain academic resources have to be made available not for the profit they bring the company but for the legitimacy they provide to a software company that would aspire to be designated academic. BTW, I think BDF, as the most recognized academic NT grammar, would eventually bring in a good profit for Accordance!

Just a personal note: it is somewhat discouraging to hear that the preparation of a certain resource, no matter how valuable or even if recognized as das Standardwerk in its field, is not pursued simply due to the intensive labor involved. The impression is that Accordance takes its monopoly-like position in the Mac market for granted at the expense of its faithful customers who have already committed substantial resources to one Bible software and have no option to turn elsewhere without great financial loss. The fact is I like Accordance and don't want to turn elsewhere, but the undesirable impression remains nonetheless.


Jonathan, thanks for the feedback. Regarding your personal note, please allow me to clarify. The fact that a resource involves a significant amount of labor does not mean that we will not undertake it. Nor does the potential loss of investment mean we will not undertake it. I could name a large list of resources that we currently have available, or are currently producing that we have committed to because of their academic value and will probably never recoup our development investment on.

Regarding BDF, we obviously know its value; it's been around for a long time, and these requests are not the first we've had for it. When I said 'long story short', that means there has been considerable discussion on acquiring this resource, and without divulging unnecessary details, it is a complicated situation. In the end we will most likely have to e-text the resource ourself, and then also license it from UChicago Press. This does not mean we will not ever get it; it means that for now, with the other major projects we are investing in, it is not our top priority. Please do not read anything else into it; we have to make decisions like this all the time and given this recent peak of interest, I will look into putting it back on the table for discussion.

My apologies for any undesirable impression. Thanks for being one of the many 'faithful' customers that make our app and community what it is.

Rick

Edited by Rick Bennett, 04 May 2012 - 07:39 AM.

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#12 Joe Weaks

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:56 PM

...the preparation of a certain resource, no matter how valuable or even if recognized as das Standardwerk in its field, is not pursued simply due to the intensive labor involved...

Jonathan,
I've been using Accordance for a very long time, and I see many important resources for which I am grateful that Accordance has developed, even though for some of them there is no way they are recouping their costs.
While DBF is important, for a niche group, I'd argue the most important historical Greek Grammar to have is Robertson's, which they do have.
But, we all have our bucket list of most-important tools that we'd put at the top of the list if we could.
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#13 Jonathan C. Borland

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:01 PM

Dear Rick,

Thanks for your comments which certainly help clarify things a bit.

Robertson's grammar, the hard copy of which I have and have actually read, is not nearly as up to date with the periodical literature and lacks the characteristic German brevity. The good thing about Robertson is that he doesn't abbreviate Greek so much but actually prints it all out, but even this is not as necessary in the digital age where you can hover over the reference and have the text appear instantly.

I still hope BDF will become available for Accordance someday.

#14 Bobert

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 08:27 AM

I'd like to once again cast my vote for this wonderful resource.

Joe, just out of curiosity, why do you think Robertson is more important than BDF?

#15 Abram K-J

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:20 PM

More than a year later, I'm seeing this thread and want to add my "amen" to those who would appreciate (a) BDF and (B) Zerwick's Biblical Greek.


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#16 Rick Bennett

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 02:37 PM

More than a year later, I'm seeing this thread and want to add my "amen" to those who would appreciate (a) BDF and ( B) Zerwick's Biblical Greek.

 

Thanks for chiming in. The situation is still the same, but definitely not forgotten about.


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#17 PhilT

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:30 PM

From what I understand BDF is currently undergoing revision. I too, would like this grammar made available.

#18 PhilT

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:48 PM

Just found this while searching. A PDF for BDF. http://nicksdata.fil...-literature.pdf I don't know who put it up there. But this must infrig. Copywrite

#19 Abram K-J

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 07:03 AM

Thanks, Rick.

 

Phil, I had heard at one point that Daniel Wallace was going to revise it, but then he (and/or others) decided not to. So maybe it's going to stay just as it is?


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