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How About a New, 1901 American Standard Version Module?

The Existing One is Corrupt

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#1 Enoch

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:32 PM

As a devotee of the ASV (1901) since 1961 when I bought my first one, which I have read over & over again, times beyond counting (since it is the most literal scholarly-committee major translation of the Bible I know of), I am sad at the corrupt state of the Accordance ASV module.

An example of the errors is Rev. 6:5 where the 3rd seal is called the first seal. "And when he opened the first seal, I heard the third living creature."

The Old ASV is public domain. There surely is a better transcription of it among the several on-line downloadable texts. I did not notice such problems in the old DOS Bible Soft ASV text that I bought back around the time when DOS 3.3 was hot stuff and a 20 Megabyte hard drive might be icing on the cake for your dual 5 inch floppy PC.

I suggest that Accordance get another copy of the ASV & use the computer to compare the two. Buying a printed ASV for ~$100 from Star Publishing in Fort Worth also is not a big expense for Accordance.

The 1901 ASV text module is inconsistent with the reputation (& fact of) excellence of the Accordance program.

Edited by Enoch, 23 May 2012 - 12:13 AM.


#2 R. Mansfield

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 09:24 AM

Note: all edits to my original message appear in blue.

I have the Star print edition of the ASV and confirmed that the word should be third instead first in Rev 6:5. Then I compared the four Bible software programs I have on my Mac, and found that two of them were correct, and two of them (including Accordance) had the error. I would guess the error began with an etext that was in error from way back since it shows up in more than one program.

Enoch, I certainly can't speak for Oak Tree, but realistically, I can't imagine them giving priority attention to cleaning up the ASV in Accordance. It's an important translation, and there are certainly individuals who use it regularly such as yourself, but you are in a very small minority. On the level of simple economics, there's no financial gain for them to focus right now on the ASV--if I remember correctly, it's included free in at no additional charge* within the starter bundle that comes with Accordance 9. It simply wouldn't make any sense for them to pay one of their developers to spend numerous hours comparing the Accordance text with the Star edition to find a few errors when that would not result in any return on investment from users. It would simply probably be a free no-additional-cost-to-the-user-incurred update for everyone who already has the text. Of course, the folks at Oak Tree work hard to make certain that the original language texts are exact as well as popular translations, but I don't think anyone's going to invest in Accordance just because it might get a reputation of having "the most accurate ASV."

I'm not knocking you or the ASV by saying that--it's just reality. On one level, I can relate because a couple of my pet favorite translations are the REB and the TEV. And while I'm thankful to have both of these in Accordance, neither include the textual notes, which I would so greatly love to have. I'd also like to have an Accordance version of the New English Bible and the 1881 Revised Version (the immediate predecessor to your ASV), but I'm not going to hold my breath because none of these "wants" on my part make any financial sense for Oak Tree. And in the big picture, since every company's resources are limited, I'd actually much rather they devote their efforts to other projects instead of titles that only a very few people--including myself--might want.

However, I can assume that with any such error in the ASV you come across, if you'll report it (right-click on the text and choose "Report a Correction"), the folks at Oak Tree will update the module with that correction as soon as possible. Yes, I know it's not our job to do editing work for them, but errors are the reality of both print and electronic titles. At least in Accordance, there's a built-in procedure for alerting them to the corrections. Many times, I've gone out of my way to let a print publisher know about an error in a printed text. That's just something I tend to do as a means of being helpful when I see an error, regardless of what format it's in.


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*In contrast to other modules such as the GNT-T, that do require additional funds above and beyond the starter bundle.

Edited by R. Mansfield, 01 June 2012 - 11:18 AM.

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#3 Enoch

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 10:08 AM


I don't know what the cost to Oak Tree would be for comparing another electronic text to find diversions, but I don't think it would be astronomical. No, it is not free. You can't get it (aside from trial) from Oak Tree without paying money. The word "free" is very abused in marketing, as is "absolutely free" and "free gift." If you have to pay for something, it is not free. If you have to buy A to get B "free," B is not free. The biggest problem with this is that salvation is free, a free gift; but the word is abused so much, that it may cause persons not to believe that salvation is in fact free.


This is a matter of integrity. If one sells an ASV, it should be a genuine ASV. This is not a matter of getting a new module, as you compare it to, like the RV 1881 or notes. It appears to me that the Accordance "ASV" has so many, many errors, that it is not practical for someone to undertake a free (to Oak Tree) project of proof-reading the ASV for them. The result of having a defective ASV could be false quotations from it, invalid research.


This is not a matter of having "the most accurate ASV," but of in fact having an ASV. In all my life I never heard of a "most accurate ASV." I never detected any problem (except one missing letter in a word) in any ASV I have owned, whether from Thomas Nelson, The Watchtower Association, or Star.


I suppose that until Oak Tree fixes the alleged ASV, it should call it The Defective ASV, instead of the ASV, and put a pop-up warning or something with it.

I have reported error before on the ASV (such as in a most important verse, Galatians 2:20) and never seen any correction.


The 1901 ASV text module is inconsistent with the reputation (& fact of) excellence of the Accordance program.


#4 R. Mansfield

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:18 AM

I don't know what the cost to Oak Tree would be for comparing another electronic text to find diversions, but I don't think it would be astronomical.


Hmmm....astronomical might be a relative term.

Let me repeat again: I do not speak for Oak Tree Software. To be specific: I am only offering my own opinion.

Let's assume that there's a more accurate electronic text out there somewhere. The text would need to be cleaned up so that it could be imported into an Accordance user Bible. That could take a few hours or a few days according to the nature and quality of the etext itself. Once it is imported, it would be easy enough to place it next to the Accordance ASV and check the compare button. According to the level of differences, it might take a day or surely less than a week to make corrections.

But how would you really know it's now correct? If the hardback Star edition that you and I own is the "best" ASV text in existence, it would still need to be compared to that. I have a feeling that would be a very tedious and costly project (paying a developer by the hour or however Oak Tree developers are paid, while taking that developer off more pressing projects).

Ultimately, my response to your original message was an attempt to be pragmatic. There's a small minority of folks (so far, you, but let's assume there are others) who would like the ASV to receive a thorough evaluation in regard to its faithfulness to the correct ASV text. Every company (EVERY company) has limited resources: people with varying degrees of talent and skill and capital to pay them. Every company has to weigh its projects against what will benefit the majority of customers in relation to its financial resources to complete those projects. This is just simple economics.

No, it is not free. You can't get it (aside from trial) from Oak Tree without paying money. The word "free" is very abused in marketing, as is "absolutely free" and "free gift." If you have to pay for something, it is not free. If you have to buy A to get B "free," B is not free. The biggest problem with this is that salvation is free, a free gift; but the word is abused so much, that it may cause persons not to believe that salvation is in fact free.


Point taken. I have amended my original response with all changes formatted in blue text.

This is a matter of integrity. If one sells an ASV, it should be a genuine ASV. This is not a matter of getting a new module, as you compare it to, like the RV 1881 or notes. It appears to me that the Accordance "ASV" has so many, many errors, that it is not practical for someone to undertake a free (to Oak Tree) project of proof-reading the ASV for them. The result of having a defective ASV could be false quotations from it, invalid research.


I essentially agree, but based on what I wrote above, I would suggest that the factors surrounding the use of the ASV by Accordance users makes it a triaged point of integrity. I hope that it will eventually be fixed (just as I hope for the footnotes for the TEV and REB), but if this does not become an immediate project on Oak Tree's part, I certainly understand why this is the case based upon all surrounding factors.


This is not a matter of having "the most accurate ASV," but of in fact having an ASV. In all my life I never heard of a "most accurate ASV." I never detected any problem (except one missing letter in a word) in any ASV I have owned, whether from Thomas Nelson, The Watchtower Association, or Star.



...which goes to my point. You see, I have heard of references to "the most accurate Greek New Testament" or even "the most accurate KJV" because these are widely in use. The ASV, while important (I've never denied this fact), is in very limited use these days and therefore (again, my opinion only), does not warrant the same level of attention as other projects currently on Oak Tree's plate, simply due to the universal reality of limited resources.

I suppose that until Oak Tree fixes the alleged ASV, it should call it The Defective ASV, instead of the ASV, and put a pop-up warning or something with it.

I have reported error before on the ASV (such as in a most important verse, Galatians 2:20) and never seen any correction.


The 1901 ASV text module is inconsistent with the reputation (& fact of) excellence of the Accordance program.


I am at my office, and my Star edition of the ASV is at home, but in comparing Accordance's ASV Gal 2:20 (I agree, a very important verse) with the Logos ASV, I don't see any difference other than some italicized words in the Logos text. But maybe I am overlooking it, or maybe both texts have the error.

At any rate, Enoch, hopefully, we may soon see the fruit of your labors, in regard to errors you have reported, in the form of an updated ASV text. As for a thorough revision of the entire text, who knows? You know what they say about the squeaky wheel and all... :)

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#5 Enoch

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 08:29 PM

LOL on the blue corrections.

You say:
QUOTE:
You see, I have heard of references to "the most accurate Greek New Testament" or even "the most accurate KJV" because these are widely in use. The ASV, while important (I've never denied this fact), is in very limited use these days and therefore (again, my opinion only), does not warrant the same level of attention as other projects currently on Oak Tree's plate, simply due to the universal reality of limited resources.
UNQUOTE

Have you really seen "the most accurate Greek New Testament" when under discussion is one edition of the Greek NT? I.e. when discussing UBS Gk text ed 3, of which there no doubt were 1000's printed, someone compares different printed copies & calls one "the most accurate UBS-3? They may compare different Gk texts, like the Received, the "Marjority," Tischendorf, Nestle & call one of the "the most accurate Greek New Testament, but are you sure that one particular edition of a version which has many copies printed & one copy is called "the most accurate" New English Bible copy or the like?


Triage suggests that the Accordance program has been hit by a catastrophe & has many modules severely injured; so you pick the most injured to treat first (unless it is a basket case; hopeless cases are not treated first in triage).

So far as I know, the ASV 1901 is the only module that is so corrupt in Accordance.

Galatians 2:20 ASV-D [D for defective] "Christ living in me." Get out your Star ASV & you will see that this reading is wrong. It was probably typed by someone who was unfamiliar with Elizabethan English.

If Accordance gets a better electronic ASV & compares it with computer, I doubt it would take more than a day for someone with a Star ASV to correct the text. Once the corrected texts is promulgated, since I am very familiar with the ASV & use it habitually, I would be happy to send corrections to Oak Tree after that.

Another approach would be to scan a Thomas Nelson or Star ASV, though it would take more time.

And of course the choice is not between just keeping the present corrupt ASV and having a perfect ASV. Any improvement is an improvement.

However, by putting out this ASV in Accordance, Oak Tree is being a Bible edition producer. Now what Bible printer doesn't take pains to ensure that his edition is correct? Should Oak Tree be more careless than Thomas Nelson or Star (or even the Watchtower Association) when it prints an ASV? The Watchtower used to sell the ASV, probably because the ASV uses Jehovah in the OT. But I never saw any such errors in the Watchtower's printing. Surely Oak Tree can do as well as the Watchtower.

As to a thorough revision, I think that is an exaggeration and not what I am asking for, just correcting the errors. I, myself, am doing a revision, mostly just into modern English and correcting punctuation to modern standards. (The ASV sets off and before verbs with commas; it also sets off infinitives with commas and uses the colon in a way moderns do not. So eventually I will need to find out how to add my own version into the Accordance program.

Edited by Enoch, 01 June 2012 - 08:37 PM.


#6 Dan Francis

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:19 AM

LOL on the blue corrections.

You say:
QUOTE:
You see, I have heard of references to "the most accurate Greek New Testament" or even "the most accurate KJV" because these are widely in use. The ASV, while important (I've never denied this fact), is in very limited use these days and therefore (again, my opinion only), does not warrant the same level of attention as other projects currently on Oak Tree's plate, simply due to the universal reality of limited resources.
UNQUOTE

Have you really seen "the most accurate Greek New Testament" when under discussion is one edition of the Greek NT? I.e. when discussing UBS Gk text ed 3, of which there no doubt were 1000's printed, someone compares different printed copies & calls one "the most accurate UBS-3? They may compare different Gk texts, like the Received, the "Marjority," Tischendorf, Nestle & call one of the "the most accurate Greek New Testament, but are you sure that one particular edition of a version which has many copies printed & one copy is called "the most accurate" New English Bible copy or the like?


Triage suggests that the Accordance program has been hit by a catastrophe & has many modules severely injured; so you pick the most injured to treat first (unless it is a basket case; hopeless cases are not treated first in triage).

So far as I know, the ASV 1901 is the only module that is so corrupt in Accordance.

Galatians 2:20 ASV-D [D for defective] "Christ living in me." Get out your Star ASV & you will see that this reading is wrong. It was probably typed by someone who was unfamiliar with Elizabethan English.

If Accordance gets a better electronic ASV & compares it with computer, I doubt it would take more than a day for someone with a Star ASV to correct the text. Once the corrected texts is promulgated, since I am very familiar with the ASV & use it habitually, I would be happy to send corrections to Oak Tree after that.

Another approach would be to scan a Thomas Nelson or Star ASV, though it would take more time.

And of course the choice is not between just keeping the present corrupt ASV and having a perfect ASV. Any improvement is an improvement.

However, by putting out this ASV in Accordance, Oak Tree is being a Bible edition producer. Now what Bible printer doesn't take pains to ensure that his edition is correct? Should Oak Tree be more careless than Thomas Nelson or Star (or even the Watchtower Association) when it prints an ASV? The Watchtower used to sell the ASV, probably because the ASV uses Jehovah in the OT. But I never saw any such errors in the Watchtower's printing. Surely Oak Tree can do as well as the Watchtower.

As to a thorough revision, I think that is an exaggeration and not what I am asking for, just correcting the errors. I, myself, am doing a revision, mostly just into modern English and correcting punctuation to modern standards. (The ASV sets off and before verbs with commas; it also sets off infinitives with commas and uses the colon in a way moderns do not. So eventually I will need to find out how to add my own version into the Accordance program.


I think as was pointed out, if you send corrections in they will be incorporated. And if it is a minor task as say, a text sent to accordance with the corrections highlighted, would likely be most welcomed by accordance. I am sorry there are so many errors it is disturbing you, I know years back i reported several dozen errors in the New Jerusalem Bible and they were all corrected within a year (may well have been only a couple months, i just know they were corrected).

-Dan
PS: This seems to be a wide reaching problem, I opened the ASV in all my Bible Software and went to the Bible gateway and all seem to have the same reading for that verse, other than accordance/bible gateway have no textual italics. I do note QV has a couple spaces missing too… It is very sad if the text is as badly done as you have said.
Accordance
Gal. 2:20 (ASV) I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
QuickVerse
20Ihave been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, butChrist living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh Ilive in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me,and gave himself up for me.
OnlineBible

ASV I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
Logos

20I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
Bible Gateway


American Standard Version (ASV)


20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

#7 Enoch

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:39 PM

At first I couldn't believe that you misquoted the ASV for Gal 2:20. The ASV actually says "Christ liveth," not "Christ living." But on 2nd glance, I think you were quoting Bible Gateway's mistake.

Sorry, but I don't have time to edit the whole ASV free for Accordance. I believe it would take too much time. I haven't seen any error fixed that I already reported. This needs to be done by computer by someone who knows more than I do about computer checking. First step would be to check the Accordance ASV vs the old DOS Biblesoft ASV. Then, if that proves inadequate, the print ASV could be scanned into a computer and then checked that way.

I think another ASV error is the failure to reflect italics in the ASV, which was the traditional way of designating a translation liberty where the Greek literally doesn't have such a word (not that such liberties are wrong). On computer I would suggest using square brackets instead of italics.


I am not submitting these errors here as a means of reporting errors, but as a means of supporting my request that Accordance provide a corrected ASV module, following the same standards of accuracy that print publishers want to follow.

A very humorous example is Revelation 13:15 where the ASV "the image of the beast" is changed in the Accordance ASV to "the image to the breast." I have visions of some preacher waxing eloquent about how the modern prurient fascination of men on female anatomy is connected to the worship of the beast. This could be followed up with the interesting 16:9 "men were scorched men with great heat," which would be an appropriate reaction to the prurience. Said preacher could then digress on the "scorched men" policy that corresponds to a scorched earth: "Beware lest thou being a scorched man shouldst become scorched."


I am reminded of the early KJV printer who was severely punished for putting out a list of 10 Commandments that included: "Thou shalt commit adultery."

Now the Accordance program is a great program; & I request that the ASV module be brought up to Accordance standards.

Edited by Enoch, 07 June 2012 - 11:18 PM.


#8 Jonathan C. Borland

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 11:31 PM

I can see how that one in Rev 13:15 could have happened. It appears that the originator of this module typed the entire thing out manually? Wow, what magnificent effort!

#9 Dan Francis

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 12:44 AM

It is sad that these errors exist but if they are never reported, it is hardly Accordances fault totally, obscure public domain texts are dealt with to the best of their abilities. But when MOST every Bible program has some of the same mistakes, it shows a great lack of concern for the text. As it has been pointed out this historically important text is not widely used today. And seeing as this is very important to you and you claimed it would take one day to do it I can't understand your reluctance to devote one day of your time to correct something you see as so important. Is there any computer program you know of that has the proper text? I see kindle supposedly has a very well corrected edition available but i am not sure if it is or not. http://www.freeasv.org/ Appears to have a corrected New Testament Text, and http://www.bible-res...asv.errata.html seems to have numerous New Testament corrections, but other than that one NT site i can find no one with a corrected ASV online, while I can not say for sure it would be possible if a website had a highly corrected text (several sites were listed as having them but they are all defunked now. But if you were able to point it to accordance they may be able to contact them to find out if they would be willing to share it with them, for while it technically is copy writ free most companies do expect to be asked permission for the use non-the-less. I am not trying to make small you issues with this I understand it is very disturbing for you not having a good text to work with, I am just trying to figure out the best way of getting you the corrected text into Accordance. Because as it has been pointed out this is likely a low priority for Accordance at this time, I am sure text corrections submitted would be incorporated but spending time proofing a text can be very hard, our eyes play tricots on us… We read what we know something should be not what is actually there.

-Dan

#10 Mark Nigro

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 03:24 AM

I would imagine that in order to identify these errors from the very start and avoid the release of an incorrect e-text, it would be necessary first to be aware that (or assume) there are mistakes, second to know where they reside (or have a way to search them out), and three to have a reliable reference text that is CERTAIN to be correct (had this text existed it would have obviously been used for all e-text publication and we wouldn't be having this discussion), against which the faulty text can be compared. But which text can we be certain is correct (even a print edition may and often does have typos directly from the publishers)? As for an e-text, which I believe is the most effective way a software company is going to work with a text, there doesn't seem to be an inerrant version around at this time.

As for scanning in the entire bible page by page (I can't speak for Accordance but let's be realistic friends) that is not the way to deal with this problem. I mean, how long would that take? And then how do you work with it once scanned? If it is converted with OCR, my experience is that you inevitably will have various conversion errors, from misread punctuation to misspelled words and misplaced letters. With a text as large as the bible, you will no doubt end up creating MORE problems than the e-text currently has. I trust Accordance to eventually find the right solution, but I do not think (IMHO) any of those proposed in this thread are the answer other than simply reporting each one when it is discovered.

Again (IMHO) this is not for neglect of the ASV, although I can understand how someone who favors it so much may perceive this to be the case. This sort of problem creeps in with every e-text. I have reported many, many errors from various translations of the Bible to commentaries etc. I have the Italian Nuova Riveduta that is full of accent errors consistently throughout the entire bible. And I have reported them, and know that eventually they will be corrected. I certainly don’t expect other current projects to be dropped immediately in order to give attention to those typos. And with regard to correction work, I can only assume that this type of effort is constant AND backlogged, unable to keep up with the load to release corrections as quickly as we all would like.

Remember, an e-text that is released will be assumed to be correct until it is proven to have mistakes. The user-based error reporting system that Accordance has programmed into the application speaks to me of how seriously they take textual accuracy and of their intention to deal with errors as soon as they can. In all fairness, the ASV is not the only problematic text in Accordance (or in other applications as DWFrancis has clearly demonstrated) that needs to be corrected. But we can be sure that the errors we report will eventually be dealt with by Accordance sooner or later. And whether that is done in the order they are received or according to Accordance's judgment call on which projects require their immediate attention, I trust them to do what is best and most necessary.

Edited by Mark Nigro , 08 June 2012 - 04:54 AM.

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#11 Ruben Gomez

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 06:16 AM

Have you looked at the ASV e-text of some of the free Bible software packages available out there? If those were okay (or at least better), they could be easily converted into Accordance modules, I would think (since we're talking about a public domain text).

Just an idea.

#12 Dan Francis

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 02:39 PM

Have you looked at the ASV e-text of some of the free Bible software packages available out there? If those were okay (or at least better), they could be easily converted into Accordance modules, I would think (since we're talking about a public domain text).

Just an idea.

I was attempting to find a suitable one last night and MOST are not, even if one is found using anthers input work without express permission is generally done. It very well maybe the Kindle version which claims o be thoroughly corrected is without flaw… but without the permission of the person who placed it into Kindle format, there is a good chance of legal repercussions if that was done.

-Dan

PS: KJV is a lot older but several companies hold copy writs on their electronic texts, indeed Thomas Nelson Publlishers even has copywriter their 1975 edition they corrected too…. So Being formally in public domain doesn;t mean it can easily be taken from anywhere.

#13 Enoch

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 09:12 PM

Dan:

This could make a great study in textual criticism! LOL Trace back the ASV computer text to a gum-chewing blond minimum wage secretary
who spoke in an Eastern New Joisey accent. Perhaps there are several sources , J E D P & redactors. One could make a genealogical tree and study them for theological bias or Gnostic influence.

I don't like to hear the ASV called obscure, but maybe you are right. Apparently Star Publishing has a market for them among Campbellite Church of Christ people

Dan & Ruben:
The "one day" suggestion is made for Accordance to do, since Accordance sells it. And it is for those who are expert on computers & word processing. I don't have a program for comparing two texts nor know how to use such. This is for the rocket scientists of Accordance! If Kindle has a correct text, then that could be compared.

I see no copyright issue, since the computer comparison would just spot the variations. The Rocket Scientist would have a printed ASV on his desk & just check where the divergences occur & type into the Accordance ASV the corrections from the printed ASV. I don't know why you would contact anyone. If you buy their electronic ASV (peanuts for Accordance) and then use it to spot divergences, that is fair use. The corrections to Accordance-ASV are based on the public domain printed ASV, old Thomas Nelson or whatever, not on Kindle.

I don't see what is hard about this if you have a program to compare two texts & it just shows where they differ.

If worst comes to worst, the public domain ASV can just be scanned into a computer -- I don't know how long that takes.
For fun I might take an ASV to Kinko's & ask them if they can cut it into separate unbound pages (chomp!) & feed it through their scanner, & what it would cost to give me the result, hopefully run through a good OCR device.

Then of course one could check that vs the Accordance-ASV with a printed copy on the desk.

But you know what? I'll bet the rocket scientists at Accordance know how to do this thing much better or more efficiently than I.

Michael:

I am reminded of the curse in Jeremiah for trusting men (I don't even trust myself -- in many ways we all err).

I don't believe there is a problem with divergent printed ASV's. I have been reading the ASV through over & over beyond counting from at least 3 different publishers/printers & never noticed a divergence -- all I recall is the failure of one letter to print out. I see no reason to invent the idea of divergent printed texts.

Edited by Enoch, 08 June 2012 - 09:26 PM.


#14 Tony Lawrence

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 10:00 PM

I don't like to hear the ASV called obscure, but maybe you are right. Apparently Star Publishing has a market for them among Campbellite Church of Christ people


Enoch, I am a member of the church of Christ and I have never been a Campbellite. I would suggest you refrain from pejorative name calling. The forums are a great place to discuss the benefits, tips and even criticisms of the software but not a place for criticism of ours theology. There are other venues for that.

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#15 Ruben Gomez

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 06:51 AM

I was attempting to find a suitable one last night and MOST are not


Yes, but there is at least one that is suitable and can be freely used (i.e., no copyright issues).

The "one day" suggestion is made for Accordance to do, since Accordance sells it. And it is for those who are expert on computers & word processing.



Enoch: Text developers don't usually work the way you describe, and are certainly not rocket scientists. Since you have a printed copy of the ASV, could you please tell me if it displays poetic formatting (e.g., in the book of Psalms and at some other places)? Don't worry about Kindle editions or anything. I'll take a look and get back to you.

#16 Enoch

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 12:54 PM

Tony,

Thou shalt not shoot canon balls at canary birds.

You say:
"Enoch, I am a member of the church of Christ and I have never been a Campbellite. I would suggest you refrain from pejorative name calling. The forums are a great place to discuss the benefits, tips and even criticisms of the software but not a place for criticism of ours theology. There are other venues for that."

I am not doing pejorative name calling. Campbellite is not a cuss word. Thomas & Alexander Campbell helped give birth to a movement in which the adherents have been called Campbellites. I was raised in that movement & was never bothered by the term "Campbellite," though I am no longer of such persuasion. The Campbells were held in honor in the group I was with. The Campbellites historically split into 2 groups: 1) the Disciples of Christ (Christian churches), liberal, and 2) the Churches of Christ, conservative (against instrumental music, etc.) I simply used Campbellite to distinguish the Church of Christ movement (Star Publishing, publisher of the ASV 1901) from other groups that may use the same name, like United Church of Christ, but are not of the Campbellite origin. E.g., I understand that the Evangelical & Reformed Church united with the Congregationalists in times past to form the United Church of Christ, quite a different group.

I supposed that since Star Publishing Company seems to be successful in selling the ASV (1901), that translation may well be popular among the Campbellite Church of Christ movement (not the United Church of Christ). Thus the claim that "ain't nobody nowhere interested in no ASV" may be incorrect.

[Interestingly enough, Star Publishing's New Testament ASV, has a polemical appendix arguing in favor of the Church of Christ polity complete with step-by-step directions on how to start a local Church of Christ. -- I don't expect Accordance to add that as a module.]

There was no criticism of anyone's theology, though I reject the idea that such cannot be done. But no criticism was given. Now if you have a term you like better to distinguish the differing Church of Christ movements, let me know what it is.

And if you are in that movement, you can tell me if indeed my supposition is correct about the possible continued popularity of the ASV in that movement.

Edited by Enoch, 09 June 2012 - 01:20 PM.


#17 Enoch

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 01:03 PM

Ruben,

Sorry to take issue with you, but I certainly have long regarded the Accordance producers as Rocket Scientists, having produced a magnificent Bible study tool. I can't imagine them not being able to produce an accurate ASV. And I am sure that they could well afford to have it typed up from scratch again.

I have a copy of the ASV in print? I must have at least 20 of them. I stocked up from Star Publishing fearing lest it go out of print altogether. Yes, it has poetic formatting, capitalizing the first word of lines in poetry like in Psalms.

Now when the economy collapses & the dollar sinks to nothing in value, I shall no doubt survive by bartering my most valuable ASV's for bread, since everyone will want one! LOL

#18 Ruben Gomez

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 01:10 PM

Ruben,

Sorry to take issue with you, but I certainly have long regarded the Accordance producers as Rocket Scientists, having produced a magnificent Bible study tool. I can't imagine them not being able to produce an accurate ASV. And I am sure that they could well afford to have it typed up from scratch again.

I have a copy of the ASV in print? I must have at least 20 of them. I stocked up from Star Publishing fearing lest it go out of print altogether. Yes, it has poetic formatting, capitalizing the first word of lines in poetry like in Psalms.

Now when the economy collapses & the dollar sinks to nothing in value, I shall no doubt survive by bartering my most valuable ASV's for bread, since everyone will want one! LOL


I think you misunderstood what I said. I was referring to text development, not to software engineering. Anyway, thanks for checking about poetic formatting. I think I found a pretty good e-text that includes all of that. Let me see what I can do with it :-)

#19 Helen Brown

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 01:22 PM

Enoch: We have received your message loud and clear. We will see what we can do to improve the ASV, even though you are the only person demanding that we do so, out of many thousands of our users.

Yes, theological discussions are off limits in this Forum, as mentioned in the Guidelines. We welcome people of any and all theological persepctive. We're here to discuss Accordance and help people to use it effectively.

This thread is now officially closed. If another thread is opened on this topic, it will be closed promptly.
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