Jump to content


Photo

Finding אֱלֹהִים when translated only as "God"

Search Key Number

  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 Mark Nigro

Mark Nigro

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California
  • Interests:Theology, biblical and modern languages, motorcycles, classical guitar, technology
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:07 AM

I first searched for אֱלֹהִים in my BHS-W4, which gave me all the results of its use in the Old Testament. I then verified by way of the analytics pane that it is translated 2316 times as "God" rather than "god" or "gods." However, when trying to search for it by "[KEY H0430]@God" or "[KEY H0430]=God" to populate the search pane only with the verses specifically translated and capitalized as "God," I cannot get it to work. Instead, I receive a pop up menu requiring me to select the appropriate Key number, which then changes the search string and still wont run the search. According to all instructions I have found, "[KEY H0430]@God" should be the correct command string. Screen shot attached. What am I doing wrong?


Thanks,

Attached Files


Edited by Mark Nigro , 03 December 2012 - 05:24 AM.


#2 Ken Simpson

Ken Simpson

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 1,732 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia
  • Interests:Astronomy
    Archaeology
    Physics
    Hebrew and Greek
    Papyrology
    Orthopædic Surgery
    Yosemite 10.10.1
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:17 AM

Hi Mark,

[KEY H0430]@God works fine for me....


EDIT:
However, this particular search doesn't find only capitalised God.

Edited by Ken Simpson, 03 December 2012 - 05:41 AM.

Regards
Ken
Lead Australian Accordance Demonstrator

Administrator, Accordance Exchange

Assistant Minister, Summer Hill Church


#3 Mark Nigro

Mark Nigro

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California
  • Interests:Theology, biblical and modern languages, motorcycles, classical guitar, technology
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:22 AM

Thanks Ken, not sure what the problem is. I've put up a corrected screen shot now in my original post, showing it with the ESV open together with the BHS. So you are not then receiving that pop up window as in my screen shot?

#4 Ruben Gomez

Ruben Gomez

    Gold

  • Accordance
  • 247 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Spain
  • Accordance Version:10.x

Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:24 AM

It doesn't work for me either (Mac OS 10.7.5), but using "=God"@ [KEY h430] should find what you are after.

Edit: Actually, that's not the same as [KEY h0430]@"=God", but that doesn't seem to work...

Okay, I know what happened. If you have your search set to Flex, it won't work. You need to change it to Exact.

Edited by Ruben Gomez, 03 December 2012 - 05:37 AM.


#5 Mark Nigro

Mark Nigro

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California
  • Interests:Theology, biblical and modern languages, motorcycles, classical guitar, technology
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:26 AM

Ruben, thank you! That did in fact get me what I need.

Mark

#6 Ken Simpson

Ken Simpson

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 1,732 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia
  • Interests:Astronomy
    Archaeology
    Physics
    Hebrew and Greek
    Papyrology
    Orthopædic Surgery
    Yosemite 10.10.1
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:28 AM

Hi Mark,
no I don't get the popup.
Try this.
Change your search to exact in the search drop down. (the magnifying glass at the left end of the search entry box)
Try your search again...
I bet it works.

Ruben's answer worked because the " " make the search exact.
So either change the search type to exact, or use " " to make it exact in flex mode

Regards
Ken
Lead Australian Accordance Demonstrator

Administrator, Accordance Exchange

Assistant Minister, Summer Hill Church


#7 Ken Simpson

Ken Simpson

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 1,732 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia
  • Interests:Astronomy
    Archaeology
    Physics
    Hebrew and Greek
    Papyrology
    Orthopædic Surgery
    Yosemite 10.10.1
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:35 AM

As an aside, a more foolproof method of doing this is to do it from the analysis window.

Search by Key in a keyed text
do Analysis (Word Count Tools)
Attached File  Workspace-3.png   31.22KB   17 downloads
Select the Key you want to search for under the English form you want
right click and choose search in ESVS (or other Strong's keyed text)
Attached File  MySpace.png   113.43KB   27 downloads
then Accordance will format and perform the search for you.
Attached File  Workspace.png   54.06KB   21 downloads

Edited by Ken Simpson, 03 December 2012 - 05:37 AM.

Regards
Ken
Lead Australian Accordance Demonstrator

Administrator, Accordance Exchange

Assistant Minister, Summer Hill Church


#8 Mark Nigro

Mark Nigro

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California
  • Interests:Theology, biblical and modern languages, motorcycles, classical guitar, technology
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:04 AM

Ken and Ruben, I did suspect @God might not limit it to the capitalized form, but before I got that far in my 'experimenting' I became stuck with failing to run the search. Great tips!

Just ran it now from the Analysis window too. Beautiful!

As an aside, I may simply not have found it, but the Help instructions do not appear to mention the Flex vs. Exact as one of the steps for a Keyword Search.

Edited by Mark Nigro , 03 December 2012 - 06:05 AM.


#9 Ken Simpson

Ken Simpson

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 1,732 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia
  • Interests:Astronomy
    Archaeology
    Physics
    Hebrew and Greek
    Papyrology
    Orthopædic Surgery
    Yosemite 10.10.1
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:14 AM

Hmm...never checked the help on this one, but a with a quick scan I can't see it.

The search from analysis is cool isn't it!

Edited by Ken Simpson, 03 December 2012 - 06:14 AM.

Regards
Ken
Lead Australian Accordance Demonstrator

Administrator, Accordance Exchange

Assistant Minister, Summer Hill Church


#10 Kevin Soars

Kevin Soars

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 129 posts
  • Location:Vienna, Austria & UK

Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:18 AM

Mark, I do not know how to start a new topic (!) so I hope you don't mind if I add to yours?

Why, in Hebrew, is Jeremiah sometimes written as …whÎyVm√rˆy and some times as hÎyVm√rˆy ? Now, while wishing to know the answer to my question, I would be more interested to know how, in Accordance, I could find the answer myself!

Thank you,

Kevin.
Kevin.

#11 Ken Simpson

Ken Simpson

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 1,732 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia
  • Interests:Astronomy
    Archaeology
    Physics
    Hebrew and Greek
    Papyrology
    Orthopædic Surgery
    Yosemite 10.10.1
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:49 AM

HI Kevin,
there are sure to be better informed Hebrew scholars than myself, but suffice it to say that the two forms are just variant spellings of his name,
If you option click the name in a keyed English text you will see:

Jeremiah H3414 ירמיה, ירמיהו yirmeyah, yirmeyahu
[HMT-W4] ירמיהוyirmeyahu Noun proper Jeremiah

This entry shows you that the name can be spelt either way,

If you open a HMT text and find the name in the text, and triple click, for most of us it will take us to BDB, or HALOT if we've invested in it.
the entry in Halot is a little less helpful than the BDB one (in this case for this information)
BDB says: 3414 ‏ירמיהו‎, ‏ירמיה‎ v. sub ‏רמה. p. 941
showing both spellings.

This doesn't show whether there is any pattern to the usage of the 2 names.

So, if you do a hits graph of the two variations to see if there is a canonical or historical difference in the usage of the names. you get this:

Attached File  Screen Shot 2012-12-04 at 02.46.59 .jpg   191.95KB   13 downloads

As you can see, there is not much variation in usage, but the shorter form is far less common.

Edited by Ken Simpson, 03 December 2012 - 10:49 AM.

Regards
Ken
Lead Australian Accordance Demonstrator

Administrator, Accordance Exchange

Assistant Minister, Summer Hill Church


#12 Kevin Soars

Kevin Soars

    Silver

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 129 posts
  • Location:Vienna, Austria & UK

Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:06 AM

Thank you Ken. I really should have added to my question that I had discovered the first part of your answer! I could have saved you a bit of time there, sorry about that. (Though, knowing your kindness I now you won't be upset at the lateness of that additional piece of information.) I did not do a hits graph and so thank you for that. What I am really wondering is if these are just two variant spellings of the name. I certainly would not know how how to find the answer to that one.

Kevin.

I should have added (again!): is it just a matter of two different spellings or is there some other reason?

Edited by Kevin Soars, 03 December 2012 - 11:09 AM.

Kevin.

#13 Ken Simpson

Ken Simpson

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 1,732 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia
  • Interests:Astronomy
    Archaeology
    Physics
    Hebrew and Greek
    Papyrology
    Orthopædic Surgery
    Yosemite 10.10.1
  • Accordance Version:11.x

Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:32 PM

No problem
when other people read the issue, they may learn!
As to the question, that's why I suggested the hits graph. The lexica seem to suggest that they are just 2 variant spellings (hence BDB), but it may be 2 people. A hits graph shows me that the spelling variants are basically co-extensive in the OT, and so it is likely (though not proven) that they probably refer to the same person.
To be sure, you would then need to read (in context) each occurrence of the 2 variants and see if you think that is sustainable as a thesis.

Regards
Ken
Lead Australian Accordance Demonstrator

Administrator, Accordance Exchange

Assistant Minister, Summer Hill Church





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users