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#21 arcanemuse

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

The + sign... I didn't even see that thing.  Believe it or not, I have done the all day seminar and I've watched some of the podcasts.  It's just the simple fact that you cram all this stuff into your head and it's scrambled up in there so that when it comes time to use it...  It's like word problems in math.  All word problems in math to me all end up looking something like... If Tom leaves Chicago at noon driving 45 mph and Dan leaves Denver at 1 PM driving 55, how many pancakes will fit on the roof?  Purple, because aliens don't wear hats!  Accordance does things simple and obvious like that plus sign.  I'm up in the right corner with the search all thing and looking through every submenu I can find trying to find the hidden thing that is right smack in front of my face.... @@  I am making something simple into something very hard...   Head. Desk.

This poor lady that started this thread... if you are still reading this... just get Accordance!  Pay no attention to the dummy over here....   If you get Accordance before the end of the month, you can cash in on the Zondervan Bible Background set.  Before the wonderful folks at Accordance regain their sanity and raise the price on this thing, you can get it for only 149.  I bought the dead tree version and just the Old Testament alone cost me that much on a good sale. 


God Bless,
Rick

#22 Julie Falling

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:31 PM

Rick - I can certainly understand the overload part.  I've been there a number of times trying to learn a number of things. Mounce (in his Basics of Biblical Greek) describes it as "the fog" - you get hit with so much stuff at once that you have no idea where you are and where you're going.  But little by little the fog moves along and what was confusing before becomes clear, but some other stuff is still in the fog.

 

I'm one of those really strange people who liked word problems in math.  I liked doing proofs, too, but I know that that makes me very strange indeed!


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#23 WomanoftheHouse

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:29 AM

Y'all have been having fun without me!  I was busy for a couple days, and now I'm back.  I very much appreciate all your comments.  Yes, Arcanemuse, you have hit on the reality of computer use for my poor hubby.  Simpler is better.  There are little features in Logos that seem enticing (it will pronounce words you click), but with all the screen shots and videos I'm seeing, Accordance seems more comfortable and intuitive to use.  I worked on some tallies this evening, figuring out what it would cost going each direction.  I'm still not quite done, but I'm taking a mental break, whew!  Basically everything he wanted is in both Accordance and Logos.  The *one* thing he really, really wanted was Baxter.  There's a Baxter bundle with Accordance, but Logos has what appears to be a much larger Baxter package.  I found a post on the boards here from a few years ago where someone suggested they get the Directory (Baxter) into Accordance.  That is what he has been reading, and it's actually what is driving him to the computer.  The print is so small in the print version, and he'd like it to be searchable.  So maybe someone knows whether the Directory is included in the Baxter bundle with Accordance?  If it's not, then I have to convince him that he's willing to use Accordance for everything except Baxter and just get the Directory as an ebook.  Then he'd still be able to search.  Or he could do Accordance for the bulk of his stuff and a low end package of Logos just for Baxter.  Or he could go all Logos.  

 

So if you happen to know about what all is in the Baxter bundle, that would be helpful.  Meanwhile, I'll keep tallying.  

 

And thanks Arcane for the tip on the Zondervan Backgrounds set.  I had never seen that before, and it does look fascinating!  :)

 

Ok, I'll just go ahead and ask something, since I'm here.  I still haven't done the demo yet.  We downloaded it and didn't have a chance, thought we'd watch the videos we found first so we would know what we were looking at during the 60 minutes trial.  Anyways, am I seeing *tabs* in Accordance, such that you can run multiple scenarios (a map search while you're pursuing a rabbit trail, a greek interlinear and a couple translations, whatever), and keep all these open AT ONCE?  To me, that's a pretty normal way to work.  Like OF COURSE I want to be able to keep tabs of all the directions I could research and flip between them, close them when I'm done, etc.  My hubby seemed to think the same thing.  However I found comments online that Logos can't (or at least couldn't at the time the comments were written) do multiple things at once.  It's just I'm not sure what I'm seeing.  Logos seems kind of secretive to me honestly.  I've watched a whole bunch of their videos, and I have to pause, pause, pause to get a glimpse of the screen.  Usually it's out of focus or blurring into some guy sipping coffee.  I don't drink coffee and don't live the Seattle life, and as a consumer it makes me entirely distrust the product when they show it in scenarios that aren't my reality and won't show me simple things like a screen shot and honest portrayal of what it does and how it does it.  Then I tell myself I'm being picky, not generous, and could miss a product that could be a blessing, so I don't know.

 

Anyways, after hours of research, I still haven't figured out definitively even basic questions like that.  If it's true that in Accordance 10 you can search multiple directions at once in different tabs and in Logos 5 you CAN'T, then that to me is pretty significant.  Makes the perks of word pronunciation less significant.

 

And here's another one, since we're talking.  In Logos there is this intriguing category results thing, where it will pop back rabbit trails relating to place, people, etc. from your search.  Actually, I'm not sure if it's connected to your search or that it's another WAY of searching.  I tried OliveTree, and they also have this category rabbit trails thing under a resource tab.  It does *not* seem to be connected to searches.  I know I can search categories in Accordance, got that.  But if say I pop in John 1 and am reading, will there be a tab with suggested rabbit trails of people, places, etc?  So then under places it might list the baptism location and offer to take me to see pictures of it that are in one of my library resources?  Or do I actually have to ASK it to give me pictures of that baptism location?  Does Accordance suggest that to me in the way it scans and categorizes the search results?  Does Logos?  Am I overly optimistic?  LOL

 

I'll try to get to the free trial soon.  I was trying to watch some more videos first, and supposedly I sleep and homeschool my children.  We never get it all done!  



#24 Ken Simpson

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:02 AM

 
Anyways, after hours of research, I still haven't figured out definitively even basic questions like that.  If it's true that in Accordance 10 you can search multiple directions at once in different tabs and in Logos 5 you CAN'T, then that to me is pretty significant.  Makes the perks of word pronunciation less significant.
And here's another one, since we're talking.  In Logos there is this intriguing category results thing, where it will pop back rabbit trails relating to place, people, etc. from your search.  Actually, I'm not sure if it's connected to your search or that it's another WAY of searching.  I tried OliveTree, and they also have this category rabbit trails thing under a resource tab.  It does *not* seem to be connected to searches.  I know I can search categories in Accordance, got that.  But if say I pop in John 1 and am reading, will there be a tab with suggested rabbit trails of people, places, etc?  So then under places it might list the baptism location and offer to take me to see pictures of it that are in one of my library resources?  Or do I actually have to ASK it to give me pictures of that baptism location?  Does Accordance suggest that to me in the way it scans and categorizes the search results?  Does Logos?  Am I overly optimistic?  LOL

 

Hi WOTH,

I am no logos user (and barely a Biblereader user) but I can say, Accordance will speak Greek and Hebrew with a click,  and will definitely allow you to chase out independent trails keeping other trails open in either tabs or workspaces (whole windows). There is also an easily accessible history function that allows you to go back to a previous spot very simply.

 

If I understand the other question correctly, you are correct that Accordance doesn't make suggestions for you, it lets you direct where you want to go with your research or "rabbit trails". Personally I prefer this, as then I am not following someone (or thing) else's thoughts of where I should go, and doing the search in Accordance is very easy.

 

Finally, the Baxter works are:

 

The  Causes and Danger  Of Slighting CHRIST and his GOSPEL: 

A Call to the Unconverted, To TURN and LIVE 

The Reformed Pastor

The Saints’ Everlasting Rest

 

I hope that helps, and maybe some bilingual folk will chime in with more info on Logos.


Edited by Ken Simpson, 23 January 2013 - 03:04 AM.

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#25 Michael J. Bolesta

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:37 AM

Accordance will "read" text selections in English, as well as Greek and Hebrew. You can select different voices from the Mac OS itself.


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#26 Julie Falling

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:30 AM

Hey, WOTH (thanks for the abbreviation, Ken) - The 60 minute trial does not mean that you can only play with Accordance for 60 minutes.  It means that after 60 minutes you have to quit it and restart, but you can do that indefinitely.  That gives a prospective Accordance users a chance to "see what's under the hood" before buying.

 

Watching the podcasts, starting with those released since version 10 came out, is a smart way to go.  I have watched some of them multiple times to remind myself how to go about doing something.  Though I can get Accordance to do what I want (sometimes with help from the forums and podcasts), I'm still always learning new things.  That is good, not bad!


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#27 WomanoftheHouse

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:26 PM

Thanks everybody!  You've answered my questions!  And Julie, thanks for clarifying on the demo.  See I thought I was going to have to uninstall and reinstall it or something complicated.  I was saving up the 60 minutes, lol!  And y'all don't know HOW HAPPY my dh will be that Accordance can indeed read the text.  Actually, that goes beyond Logos, because Logos only said isolated words.  That's a huge help for him to have that option.

 

And Julie, I've been chewing on your comment about the instructors and whatnot using Accordance.  I havne't had a chance yet to share it with my dh, but it's definitely fascinating to me.  I did have a chance to finish my tallying, and it came out basically even (with $100 each way) except for the Baxter issue.  Since The Directory is available for free online, and since the price difference to get it in a Logos package is pretty significant (like the cost of an ipad, no matter how I tallied it), and since it's really the sort of thing that's more suited to *reading* than parallel reading with other commentaries, I think that's the way he's going to go.  

 

If I have more questions, I'll bop back!  Thanks!  :)



#28 Ken Simpson

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:33 PM

Hi WOTH,

it's worth noting that you can make your own user tools of almost any properly formatted e-text. In fact there are quite a few already on our Accordance Exchange (though sadly not the Baxter "Directory". it may be beyond hubby's abilities to do it for himself, but it is definitely possible. These texts are then fully searchable and certainly readable on both the Mac platform and the iOS platform. Integration is usually a good thing.

 

As a bit of a long shot, is there anyone out there willing to have a look at making a user tool of the directory? Is there a freely available e-text? If so, let's try and get it in the Exchange - unless there are plans to get it in the main module bank...

 

Julie, still trying to figure out how I can get to Tennessee from Sydney! (yes, I know there are aeroplanes!)

 

Thanks


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#29 WomanoftheHouse

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:52 PM

Hi WOTH,

it's worth noting that you can make your own user tools of almost any properly formatted e-text. In fact there are quite a few already on our Accordance Exchange (though sadly not the Baxter "Directory". it may be beyond hubby's abilities to do it for himself, but it is definitely possible. These texts are then fully searchable and certainly readable on both the Mac platform and the iOS platform. Integration is usually a good thing.

 

As a bit of a long shot, is there anyone out there willing to have a look at making a user tool of the directory? Is there a freely available e-text? If so, let's try and get it in the Exchange - unless there are plans to get it in the main module bank...

 

Julie, still trying to figure out how I can get to Tennessee from Sydney! (yes, I know there are aeroplanes!)

 

Thanks

 

I totally did not know that!  So to do it, is this a terribly time-consuming thing?  Like do I have to go through and create tags?  Yes, the Directory is available for Kindle and from Gutenburg.  So if it's merely a formatting thing, maybe it's within reach.  It's certainly an interesting option to have...

 

And could I say that y'all just continue to amaze me...  These are interesting features, and for all the time I've been spending reading and researching, I didn't even know they existed!  


Edited by WomanoftheHouse, 23 January 2013 - 06:53 PM.


#30 arcanemuse

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:20 PM

WOTH,

For what it is worth.... if it is more Puritan writings your husband wants to read...  you can get pretty much all of it at archive.org for free.   It isn't indexed so you can't search it and it won't be tagged so the Bible references are easy to find and so on but it is readable.  If Baxter is the crux of it, I'd go with Accordance and put in a request for more of his stuff to be made available for the program.  I am not good at this but... I think you might be able to make it usable in Accordance on your own via a user tool or something.  There is a site they have with lots of user generated content and I have seen some books on there.  Baxter is in the public domain so it could be done.  If anyone knows more of how this process works... holler.

Edit:

Either I am blind or the last posts were not there when I started typing this....  but the texts are available at archive.org


Edited by arcanemuse, 23 January 2013 - 07:24 PM.

God Bless,
Rick

#31 WomanoftheHouse

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:16 PM

You're never getting rid of me, hehe!  Ok, Julie, I have another question for you, if you're still reading this.  I'm reading about the greek diagramming features in Accordance (and Logos), and I'm seeing there are different methods of diagramming greek.  I've done trees, etc. for *english* but not for greek.  I think I may start teaching my daughter greek next year for high school.  (It's just one of the options I'm floating.)  So I'm curious what diagramming methods you can do in Accordance and how those compare to what you were taught in your greek classes.  I've seen mention of Kellogg-Reed diagrams, trees, something arc, blah blah.  And if you've tried them in Accordance, how comfortable do you find the process?

 

I'm fascinated by the idea that if I get Accordance I can use it so many ways with my high schooler as well.  I think the interlinear (click to learn!), the Zondervan Illustrated Backgrounds, there are a number of things here that could carry down to younger students.


Edited by WomanoftheHouse, 23 January 2013 - 10:17 PM.


#32 WomanoftheHouse

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:13 AM

I'm back!  I'm watching a video, a bit old but interesting, with Dr. J explaining the Accordance philosophy.  What he's explaining was what I was sensing, so it's interesting to hear it fleshed out.  He's talking about the quality vs. quantity thing, and he has a screen shot at 6:29 into the video with a number of works shown.  In that shot there's the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia series.  That seems like it ought to be interesting, but I can't find it on the site.  Is that still around?  Has it been replaced by something else?



#33 WomanoftheHouse

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:46 AM

Ok friends, I finally got the demo up and running, and I'm crazy in love!  I don't know what I was so worried about!  LOL  It does everything I thought the software ought to do, and it's so tidy and straightforward about how it does it.  Love, love.  So when you use the Amplify button and it returns things with tabs, there are sometimes multiple hits within that resource.  How do I move to the next hit?  Couldn't figure that out.  But I love that I just had everything I was expecting/hoping to get so OBVIOUS and intuitive to find that it was just right there.  Very happy.  See, in reality, I'm the one that's going to be helping the hubby use this.  When I'm happy, he's happy.  :)

 

I think one of those training seminars is in my future.  



#34 WomanoftheHouse

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:54 AM

Btw, on this demo it keeps popping up 

 

"The text ESVS is not currently available to Accordance."  

 

I have no clue what that means, but it's popping up like popcorn on my screen.  

 

Ok, now a simple question.  If you open a number of Workspaces and then close Accordance, will it come back to the workspaces and have them all there when you re-open?  You save your workspaces?  Or is it like other mac stuff where it just remembers?

 

I'm back.  I found some arrow buttons at the bottom.  I assume Art is article?  That makes sense.  Mk I can't figure out.  It doesn't seem to correspond precisely to the hits (the way a Cmd F search would), but it does seem to take me through them visually, nevertheless.

 

I decided to search Melchizedek, since that was something dh was recently searching.  I was happy to see it has a spell correct, since some people need that.  :)  And did you all know Salem was Jerusalem?  How could I not have known that?  All I had to do was tell it to search all, and up pops all this stuff!  So I'm definitely happy.  And I love that there's no clutter.  This best of the best, quality of quantity approach is right on.  

 

Well thanks you all for helping me!  I'm excited to be able to show it to him now.  I'm fascinated by the more complex things I know are hiding inside it as potential, but even just for the superficial stuff it's a really powerful tool.  There are some things I haven't figured out yet, like if he's just in the mood to read Josephus, what workspace or approach is the best for that.  Or is that why people keep saying to use Logos as a reader and Accordance for searching?  Maybe it works best when you're starting with a Scripture text and *searching* Josephus rather than sitting down to read a section?  What happens when you want to research a TOPIC in your resources and so you aren't specifically starting with a Scripture?  What workspace or set-up do you use at that point?


Edited by WomanoftheHouse, 24 January 2013 - 01:17 AM.


#35 WomanoftheHouse

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:29 AM

Ok, one last thing, and I'll stop bugging you (for tonight, hehe)...  http://www.bsreview....1#comment-96777     This article mentions clause searches in Logos, where you can create a search for a subject and a verb.  Is there something equivalent in Accordance? 



#36 WomanoftheHouse

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:33 AM

WOTH,

For what it is worth.... if it is more Puritan writings your husband wants to read...  you can get pretty much all of it at archive.org for free.   It isn't indexed so you can't search it and it won't be tagged so the Bible references are easy to find and so on but it is readable.  If Baxter is the crux of it, I'd go with Accordance and put in a request for more of his stuff to be made available for the program.  I am not good at this but... I think you might be able to make it usable in Accordance on your own via a user tool or something.  There is a site they have with lots of user generated content and I have seen some books on there.  Baxter is in the public domain so it could be done.  If anyone knows more of how this process works... holler.

Edit:

Either I am blind or the last posts were not there when I started typing this....  but the texts are available at archive.org

 

Arcane, now that I've played with the demo, I see what you mean.  I think Accordance is amazing and powerful, but you're right that it's a study tool connecting resources to the text and overkill if you goal is simply a searchable single resource.  So I'm going to talk through the psychology of this with him to see what he had in mind and make sure he has thought through that.  I think time sort of swept by him and left him with this huge amount of options that is hard to filter through.  All he knows is that right now he's in a mountain of books and post-its every time he tries to read.  That's what he's trying to get out of.  

 

And btw, are there NOTES or post-its (equivalent) in Accordance?  I didn't even think to try that while I was running the demo.



#37 Joel Brown

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:44 AM

Hello, WOTH!  Let me see what I can do to answer your last 6 posts :)

 

1) For creating user tools, like what Ken was talking about, its extremely easy.  Just give Accordance a plain text, or simple HTML file, and it can import it into a tool directly for you - no tagging required.  Or you can type in or copy/paste in your information and, again, no tagging required.  Accordance will automatically make everything searchable and linkable to the rest of your stuff in your library.  Now, the two things you can 'tag' are titles and scripture references.  You'll want to tag where the titles are to make a nice Table of Contents (though some html formatting can help do this automatically).  You'll also want to tag the scripture references, so Accordance knows where they are (again HTML can help with this).  What I'd do is just play around, see what it can import, and you can always edit or import again.

 

2) For the diagramming, I'm not a Greek or diagramming expert, but I know what you can and cannot do.  The diagram window is quite powerful and gives you a variety of objects to help build your diagrams.  Try it out in your demo - select some text (English, Greek, Hebrew, whatever!) and select 'Diagram' from the Language item on your toolbar, or from the Amplify menu.  There you'll see all the items in the palette to add to your diagram.

 

3) The ZPEB was only available as part of the Zondervan Scholarly Suite for Accordance, which has been discontinued due to contracts (I believe).  You can still find sellers of the content online, and you can easily add it to any Accordance 9/10.  I believe we are also working on updated contracts that allow us to sell the books individually, but for the time being the Scholarly Suite is the only way to get it.

 

4) To cycle through hits within a resource, use the blue arrows at the bottom.  The Mk buttons (Mark) are the ones you want, that'll go through each hit in the resource, though you can also navigate by Article (for tools) or Verse, Chapter, Book (for texts).  Finally, you can use the tool's gear menu to change 'Show Text As' to just your hit Articles or paragraphs, so you see all the hits right there.

 

5) Thanks for pointing out the ESVS issue!  I think this is a demo-specific bug, where some crosslinking is trying to find ESVS, which is part of the Accordance base packages, but not the demo.  We'll get this fixed, so thanks!

 

6) Accordance can easily save all of your open workspaces when you quit, just have its Startup set to 'Last Session' in its General Preferences.  You can also save individual workspaces, or the entire session, as a file and open it whenever you want.

 

7) Accordance also works perfectly fine as a reader, such as if you want to just read Josephus - just open it from your Library!  It has a nice variety of themes to help with legibility, or you could enable reading mode for distraction-free reading.  You could also use an auto-scroll, and have it move forward.  (all of that is in the gear menu!)  So, while Accordance is certainly very powerful for searching, we try to make it easy to use just when you want to sit and read.

 

8) Topic searching has a variety of options, depending on what you want to do.  You could start with a Search All of your tools for the topic, or specifically do one of your topical resources, or amplify to a workspace that's set up with a variety of tools that give you exactly what you want for the topic.  I'll let others comment more on this one, though.

 

9) What Logos calls clause searches are basically syntactical searches.  We have syntaxes of the Greek and Hebrew (no English, sorry!) that enable you to easily search for subjects, verbs, how they relate to each other, etc.  You could then compile the results, or just simply see the information as you work.  Take a look at Accordance's Syntax Databases if that seems interesting!  They are currently being actively developed, so as new books are ready, you'll get them as free updates.

 

10) I think its a good point to consider, what are you looking for?  As you say, if all he wants is a resource to read, Accordance may be a bit more than he was looking for.  But, if its something where he'd want to study a passage or word that he came across while reading, or any of the other things you've been discovering in Accordance, that changes the picture a bit.

 

11) Accordance lets you comment in 3 ways:  You can highlight passages or verses, and customize your highlights to represent and look how you want them to.  You can also add user notes to verses, like your post-its I believe.  You can also use the user tools I mentioned earlier to keep a more static set of thoughts that aren't tied to a particular passage.

 

I hope this helps!  Feel free to keep posting any questions, thoughts, or anything else!


  • WomanoftheHouse likes this
Joel Brown

By day: Consultant for Oaktree
By night: Freelance Trombonist and Private Instructor

#38 WomanoftheHouse

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:19 AM

Thanks Joel, that was exceptionally helpful!  Now I have pages and pages of notes to show my dh.  Using the demo was pivotal with all this.  Now what I'm reading on the forums makes a lot more sense!  And yes, I saw that User Tools.  I just didn't realize what it was.  That would take a long time to get The Directory formated like that, wowsers.  

 

Thanks, and I'm sure I'll pop in with more questions.   :)


Edited by WomanoftheHouse, 24 January 2013 - 02:19 AM.


#39 JonathanHuber

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:18 AM

For clarification: the ZPEB is discontinued because it has been updated and re-released as the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible (ZEB, http://www.accordanc...etails/?pid=ZEB). 


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#40 Julie Falling

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:28 AM

Ken - You and your wife take vacations, right?  If you're ever coming to the Southeast US, get in touch with us ahead of time.  There is lots to see and do in the area, especially if you like to be outdoors.  

 

Julie (and Steve)


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