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NIDNTT as dictionary (only Starter and UBS Handbook)?


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#1 Unix

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 01:34 PM

What do You think of New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology? The original was released in 1967 in German, there came a second Edition in 1970 ... this English Edition was expanded and released in 1986.

If I'm going to become an Accordance user, regarding collections I would get Starter. I would add a dictionary (trying to decide which one) and UBS Translator's Handbooks - New Testament (20 volumes).

 

I have some reference works since before, for example the 2005 Dictionary for Theological Interpretation of the Bible, the 2006 Christianity: The Complete Guide Bowden Ed., the 1983 A New Dictionary of Christian Theology Richardson & Bowden Eds, Harper's Bible Dictionary, TDNT (Big Kittel).

 

I would be pleased if You list Your theological leaning and/or if You can figure out what theological leaning NIDNTT has!

 

AYBD has unnecessarily long articles and is way beyond my budget for a lifetime.

 

On Monday I'm going to a library to compare different Bible dictionaries and hope they have a NIDNTT.



#2 Greg Terry

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 02:33 PM

If you are wanting a typical Bible dictionary, then I would suggest the Eerdman's Bible Dictionary which is $29.99 or if you have more money, then I would suggest the IVP collection which is about $144.99 and an excellent collection.

 

The NIDNTT is really more of a Greek language resource but with some history and theology of the words.

 

The IVP set is solidly evangelical and the Eerdmans  dictionary is largely evangelical.

 

My personal leaning is largely reformed leaning.


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#3 Ken Simpson

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 03:58 PM

No need to add the Eerdman's to the starter collection, it comes bundled already. Personally I prefer the New Bible Dictionary 3rd Ed) from IVP and hence as I said before, and agree with Greg, the IVP set is excellent value. Unix, you didn't like that suggestion when I made it above, and that's fine, but for the 6 or 6 excellent dictionaries the set contains, I happily have the others that I just don't open. NIDNTT is a very solid discussion of the theology of particular Greek words, and so while it is a dictionary, it's not a Bible dictionary in the traditional sense. E.g. You won't find an article on "The names of God" but you will find one on the Greek word theos.

Edited by Ken Simpson, 15 February 2013 - 03:59 PM.


#4 Greg Terry

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:56 PM

No need to add the Eerdman's to the starter collection, it comes bundled already.

Oops! Sorry, Ken.


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Greg


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#5 Unix

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 06:23 AM

Maybe having to go through the Gk would even be beneficial? I would be forced to learn some Gk. I have a lot of Gk tools and a couple of self-tuition books in a different software, so I'm learning Gk by myself. I'm also going to study first classical Gk in a secular uni, then theology perhaps as much as 1¼ years (I will if they still offer Anabaptist studies at that point in time), then Biblical Gk.

Also, since I would have few books in Accordance, maybe a search on an English word through the whole library would work when I have to? I haven't bought Accordance - is there a way to limit the search to certain books or bundles?:

so while it is a dictionary, it's not a Bible dictionary in the traditional sense. E.g. You won't find an article on "The names of God" but you will find one on the Greek word theos.

 

 

 

I'm not all that happy about what I hear about the theological leaning of the IVP bundle, it seems a bit too mainstream? It may have critical scholarship, but I also prefer that it would be denominationally diverse. In addition to that it's a bit too expensive.

 



Anyone who has NIDNTT knows how much it has about the book of Sirach? I have been able to preview it a little on the internet and it does mention the book of Sirach on a few pages. Anyone more with an opinion about the NIDNTT and the theological leaning of it?

 

 

 

(Sorry about not having uploaded a photo yet, I plan on taking a new one soon, I have very few photos none of them more recent than about a year old.)



#6 Unix

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 04:21 PM

I just found this: [NI]DNTT was moderate to liberal in its German form, but when translated and adapted in English, it was polished up a bit from a more conservative slant. Source: http://www.amazon.co...e=&nodeID=&tag= :

I would be pleased if [...] You can figure out what theological leaning NIDNTT has!



#7 Unix

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:45 PM

See the post about the Gk add-on and Newman that I made in: http://www.accordanc...pic=9354&page=4

Do You think that the Newman lexicon would complement NIDNTT and UBS Handbook?



#8 Unix

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:19 AM

The train-ticket to go to the best libraries was too expensive, $9½, and the ticket would be valid only 2 hours - if I would need more time to read I would have to pay the double price. (They would have both sets: NIDNTT & ISBE.) There's nothing else I would need to do over there. First I thought the ticket was ⅓ of that. There is another - but You can't go in there without being a student (the whole house is locked) and the next time they have an open-doors day isn't until March 15:

On Monday I'm going to a library to compare different Bible dictionaries and hope they have a NIDNTT.


Edited by Unix, 24 February 2013 - 09:49 AM.


#9 Unix

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:59 PM

Anyone more who thinks NIDNTT would function well together with UBS Translators Handbook New Testament?

 

See related post: http://www.accordanc...ge=4#entry42866


Edited by Unix, 23 February 2013 - 01:21 AM.


#10 Unix

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:03 AM

I'm not sure that I would get Eerdmans, the emulator installation has Accordance 9 as I've understood it - and does that mean that it only has the modules of that version, which were fewer? I'll help myself and call customer service tomorrow about that and if needed get a list emailed with exactly what's included:

No need to add the Eerdman's to the starter collection, it comes bundled already.

 

 

 

I mentioned which dictionaries and encyclopedias I already have. I'm considering getting:

I would like to have more replies here about my above questions in the posts #7, #8 and #9.



#11 JonathanHuber

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 11:36 AM

Everything works well together in Accordance. Your real question is whether these tools together would function to help you with your studies, and I have no idea since I still am very confused about what you're looking for. You need to decide what you need and research these books to decide if they would meet your needs. We can help with specific questions ("does this tool serve function X?"), but it's hard to answer a question like "do these tools meet my unspecified needs?". If you're not exactly sure what your needs are, I suggest (as others have) that you call the Accordance sales team to get their input.

 

I haven't used the UBS commentary. The Newman dictionary is complete as far as covering the vocab of the Greek NT, but it tells you relatively little about each word. In my opinion, something like the BDAG, despite costing more, is still a better value for the money. The NIDNTT is fantastic for word studies and could function as Greek lexicon, though it doesn't cover every word in the NT. It obviously doesn't cover much of the OT and thus would not serve well as a general Bible dictionary.

 

Regarding version 9/10, if you paid for version 10, Accordance could probably provide version 9 for now until the Windows version of v10 is ready.



#12 Unix

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 12:35 PM

I would use UBS Translators Handbook for it's designed useage.

 

What I'm asking is - which it seems like You understood but I'll clarify anyway: is whether the things I would need to look up from the UBS Translators Handbook NT are largely covered in the NIDNTT or not. Even if the coverage is say ⅓ then that is quite enough. I don't know whether I've specified my use enough yet? It's OK if the dictionary is a bit thin on general Bible knowledge, but I am considering another option if it's comparable to NIDNTT and would then get more general Bible (knowledge) coverage. And I would like the NIDNTT to have some general Bible knowledge because I don't want to end up getting multiple >$100 sets, especially not at this point, maybe MANY years from now.

 

I'm thinking like this: the knowledge among scholars of Gk as a language, is not going to change remarkably during a lifetime. It's more critical that I gain Gk knowledge myself. So I won't need to wait for a replacement to NIDNTT (a better and newer set) to come in the future. 

 

Thank You for the opinion that it's great for word studies. I've heard that opinion elsewhere at least a couple of times, but I'm glad to get that confirmed.

 

An option would be to go with the NIDNTT and Newmans or Louw-Nida (depending on which on is cheaper) and cut down on Church resource purchases. That way the costs would be minimal. On the other hand, the Church resources would be interesting conserning application. This is a bit complicated since I'm considering a bundle that has a lot on Church, as You can see at: http://www.accordanc...ic=9415&p=42743 ... and the revised ISBE. So it's also a question of whether to limit myself. The revised ISBE would duplicate a lot of NIDNTT so I would rather not get both.

 

I don't need coverage of the entire OT. Some references to the OT and Apocrypha is good, but that's all I need, I'm not that interested in most of the OT and certainly don't want to pay for complete coverage of the OT.

 

I'm not entirely sure I would be paying for 10 because I got different answers, one sales person would sell me 10 with the modules containing Eerdmans $50 and said it can't be downloaded and that the postage would be $28 (which is a lot), but I called Helen yesterday Saturday and she said that the Accordance with emulator can be downloaded. Like I said I'll check this tomorrow:

Everything works well together in Accordance.

 

Regarding version 9/10, if you paid for version 10, Accordance could probably provide version 9 for now until the Windows version of v10 is ready.



#13 JonathanHuber

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:02 PM

The ISBE would not duplicate the NIDNTT. The ISBE is a general Bible encyopledia, while the NIDNTT is a theological lexicon of Greek words. If you want a more traditional lexicon, Louw-Nida would be a better choice than Newman.



#14 Daniel Semler

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 02:09 PM

There is a very good abridgement of NIDNTT done by Verbrugge at Zondervan. As the work itself points out its not a mere abridgement either. One of the key advantages being the reordering by Greek rather than by English. If you're learning Greek its much nicer to work that way. Alas it uses transliteration in the text which is actually harder to parse that the Greek :) Oh well. The heads are in Greek.

 

Usual counter-args of abridgement in computers, ordering issues overcome by searching etc etc might be brought to bear against it, and countered with shorter text entries without extraneous texts etc.etc. Horses for courses ....

 

Thx

D


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#15 Unix

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 02:17 PM

This is getting expensive, because I was hoping it would duplicate so that I would not feel like ordering both:

The ISBE would not duplicate the NIDNTT. The ISBE is a general Bible encyopledia, while the NIDNTT is a theological lexicon of Greek words.

 

 

 

I know about it and didn't think it was good, besides, the abridged NIDNTT is not an update right? EDIT: I just read this about it: "and some of the conclusions regarding any given word's usages sound more like biased interpretation than raw, objective observations." Source: http://www.amazon.co...e=&nodeID=&tag=


Edited by Unix, 24 February 2013 - 02:34 PM.


#16 Daniel Semler

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 02:59 PM

I've not previously chipped in on these threads much because its not really my field. I have the Verbrugge abridgement and find it helpful - I have it in paper too. I use Accordance primarily for Greek study (I call myself a second year student) not exegetical work, though you could argue that the two cannot be separated entirely, but ...

 

In the end any researcher must weigh what he or she reads. Unbiased (or uninfluenced or pick your adjective) does not in my view really exist. Any historian will say as much. In the end you will likely need a range of resources to garner an adequately wide opinion of things. You will then need to chew it all over and decide. That actually means greater cost in the end because you will need a broad range of material. Alternatively one needs opinions one can trust and accept that one has not in fact proved the point oneself. In the end we'll do a mix of both or die very old men and women trying ... As to one comment on Amazon, who is the man making the comment ? What is his bias ? do you agree with it etc. As far as it goes its just another opinion.

 

One thing I've found learning anything is that I will go from knowing nothing, to being a danger to myself, to being a danger to others, to knowing enough to say nought, to actually having a vague clue. I consider it a process of refinement. I will not know the full meaning of agapaw at first encounter. Will I benefit from reading a full PhD dissertation on the topic at the outset ? I doubt it. An approximation will do initially followed by further refinement at subsequent encounters. At some point the afformentioned PhD dissertation will be something I can approach with adequate background to make something of it. So a simpler resource that is more accessible is often more valuable to a student than TDNT in all its glory.

 

Thx

D
 


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Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop

      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i5 Ivy Bridge

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      OSX 10.9 (Mavericks)                    Win 7 Professional x64 SP1


#17 Unix

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:10 PM

TDNT came in a "collection", I agree that it's hard to use. I would have some use of NIDNTT in classical Gk studies, which I'll be doing first:

So a simpler resource that is more accessible is often more valuable to a student than TDNT in all its glory.



#18 JonathanHuber

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:53 PM

Like Daniel above, I use the "abridged" NIDNTT and it's very good in addition to being a bit cheaper than the original 4-vol version. The condensed version squeezed into 1 volume by omitting some essays, the lengthy bibliographies (some of which were non-English works), and used a smaller font. Each entry contains a section discussing usage of the word in classical and septuagintal greek, so you would probably find this helpful for classical studies. The word study material in the condensed version is largely the same as the 4-vol version, though the abridgement did include some paring down of the classical greek discussion. If you want a lexicon for classical greek in addition to the NT, then may want to consider the full 4-vol version. Regardless, though, the primary intent is NT studies, so keep that in mind. If you think this resource would work for you, and if you call Accordance tomorrow and determine that the Eerdmans dictionary would be available to you, then I think you would have everything you need for now.


Edited by JonathanHuber, 24 February 2013 - 03:54 PM.


#19 Unix

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 12:33 PM

NIDNTT looks like it will suffice in the classical Gk studies for a start, if I need also something else I will get to know what during the studies.

 

I would not be getting the Eerdmans dictionary, only the 9 Starter collection modules, which are:

Bibles:
        King James Version with Strong's numbers
        King James version Apocrypha
        American Standard Version
        World English Bible and notes
        German Schlachter
        French Nouvelle Edition de Geneve 1979
        Italian: Nuova Riveduta 1999
        Spanish Rena Valera Bible 1909

Dictionaries:
        Greek and Hebrew Strong's Dictionaries
        Easton Dictionary
        Nave's Topical Bible
        Read Me Modules

Reference Tools:
        Matthew Henry's Commentary (abridged)
        Outlines of the Bible

Devotional Tools:
        Devotional readings
        Chronological Readings

General Tools:
        Classic Bible Passages
        Classic Hymns
        Parables and Miracles

Graphics Tools:
        Maps Sampler
        PhotoGuide Sampler
        Timeline Sampler

Parallel Databases:
        Old Testament
        Old Testament in New Testament
        Harmony
        Gospels
        Synoptics
        Epistles
        Q (Sayings)

<-- All those are pretty worthless to me.
The update to the 10 Windows version is free of charge for 9 Starter emulator owners but is only a software update and doesn't provide any new modules. However, I have almost decided not to get any Bible dictionary, just NIDNTT and probably some specialty dictionaries with theological and historical definitions (and perhaps some Church resources):

 

The word study material in the condensed version is largely the same as the 4-vol version, though the abridgement did include some paring down of the classical greek discussion. If you want a lexicon for classical greek in addition to the NT, then may want to consider the full 4-vol version. Regardless, though, the primary intent is NT studies, so keep that in mind. If you think this resource would work for you, and if you call Accordance tomorrow and determine that the Eerdmans dictionary would be available to you, then I think you would have everything you need for now.

 



#20 Ken Simpson

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:52 PM

Hi Unix, the Eerdman's Bible Dictionary should come as a free module when you upgrade to 10. At least that's my understanding (along with others like the ESV with Strong's)


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Ken
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