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#1 Brett

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:48 PM

I'd like you to consider making the Book of Jasher available as a text for study and comparison.  I know there are some fraudulent ones out there, but the 1840 translation is quite an interesting read.  Ken Johnson wrote a history book based in part on this version of Jasher and other ancient writings and believes there is reason to believe it was based on an ancient manuscript.  I'm going to paste his comments below.

 

But for me personally, I just found it an intriguing read.  There are very few discrepancies between Jaser and Genesis, though I did find some.  It's got the birthdate of Abram wrong and other things of that nature.  

 

But overall it seems a resource that may offer some historical insights.  Even if this is not the book mentioned in scripture, its insights are impressive.  And BTW, I know some people take these extra-biblical writings way too far, and treat them as inspired works.  That's certainly not me.  I just think there is value in historical works such as those of Josephus for example.  

 

Here is Ken Johnson's intro to Jasher.  Take a look and let me know if this may be a consideration.  It deals with all kinds of issues, such as the different versions that are out there, as well as the mormon interest in it. But as Ken points out, they can't actually recommend it because it contradicts some of their teachings.  Mormons also like the KJV.  To me that's a non-issue.  

 

 

 

What is the Book of Jasher?

 

Introduction

The book of Jasher is one of 13 ancient history books that are recommended reading by the Bible. Out of these 13 only Jasher is still in existence. If we are to believe the text itself, this history book was written over 3,500 years ago. It is approximately the same age as the biblical book of Genesis. It covers about the same time period as Genesis and Exodus but has about twice as much information in it than Genesis. It answers a lot of questions raised in Genesis.

 

How can we be sure this is the real Jasher and not a forgery from the Middle Ages?
There have been at least two forgeries. One is an ethical treatise from the Middle Ages and does not exist in English currently, as far as I know. It is somewhat Gnostic in style beginning with a section on the mystery of creation. A second forgery was published in AD 1829, supposedly translated by Flaccus Albinus Alcuinus. These two are nowhere near the caliber of this book of Jasher and both are missing the information that Scripture tells us is in the real book of Jasher. This is the only Jasher that corresponds to what Scripture says it contains.

 

Much of the extra information contained in Jasher can also be found in the Babylonian Talmud, the Mishna, and Ginzberg’s Legends of the Jews. There are numerous quotes showing Rabbi Eliazar used this book of Jasher extensively in the first century AD. The Mishna was completed about AD 200, and the Talmud about AD 800. We can know for a fact that the Mishna and Talmud used this book of Jasher as a source document and not the other way around. Also, since the Ancient Seder Olam was written in about AD 169 and references Jasher, we know the book of Jasher was used by other historians in the second century AD.

 

What does the Bible say about the Book of Jasher?

Scripture records the event where God caused the sun to stand still until Joshua and his men finished defeating the Amorites. This was such an incredible event the author of the book of Joshua explains it must be true because it is also recorded in the Book of Jasher. This tells us two things. First, the original book of Jasher is older than the book of Joshua; and second, Scripture recommends we read this particular history book.

 

“Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.” Joshua 10:12-14

 

Jasher’s record states this:

 

“...and Joshua said in the sight of all the people, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon, and thou moon in the valley of Ajalon, until the nation shall have revenged itself upon its enemies... And the sun stood still in the midst of the heavens, and it stood still six and thirty moments, and the moon also stood still and hastened not to go down a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened to the voice of man, for the Lord fought for Israel.” Jasher 88.63-64

 

The reference to Jasher in Second Samuel occurs where David is lamenting over the death of Saul. The Bible says:

 

“And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and over Jonathan his son: (Also he bade them teach

the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)” 2 Samuel 1:17-18

 

This passage refers to the time when Jacob lay dying and called his sons together to prophesy over them. This event is recorded in Genesis 49 but this specific command of Jacob to Judah is not recorded in Scripture but in the Ancient Book of Jasher as we are told in this passage.

 

“...only teach thy sons the use of the bow and all weapons of war, in order that they may fight the battles of their brother who will rule over his enemies.” Jasher 56:9

 

Paul names the two magicians who withstood Moses: Jannes and Jambres. This event is recorded in Exodus 7:8- 13; but the names of the magicians are never given in the Old Testament. Paul knew their names and other details about them from other Hebrew sources. One of these is the Ancient Book of Jasher.

 

“Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their’s also was.” 2 Timothy 3:8-9

 

“And when they had gone Pharaoh sent for Balaam the magician and to Jannes and Jambres his sons, and to all the magicians and conjurors and counsellors which belonged to the king, and they all came and sat before the king... And Aaron hastened and threw the rod out of his hand before Pharaoh and before his servants, and the rod turned into a serpent.” Jasher 79:27,36

 

The Ancient Seder Olam is another Hebrew history book (not mentioned by Scripture) that dates from about AD 169. It records that Rabbi Eliezer was the most accurate when figuring dates and festivals because he used the Ancient Book of Jasher as the best source for his history. This tells us Jasher was in use and very well known in the first century AD. See chapter 4 of Ancient Seder Olam for details.

 

The original preface added that Josephus wrote that Jasher is a very reliable history book. See Appendix C for full details.

 

“by this book are to be understood certain records kept in some safe place on purpose, giving an account of what happened among the Hebrews from year to year, and called Jasher or the upright, on account of the fidelity of the annals.” Josephus

 

Why isn’t the Book of Jasher in the Bible?

The Book of Jasher was never considered to be inspired of God. It is simply an accurate history book. Even though it is recommended reading by Scripture, we must never think that it equals Scripture.

 

Who was Jasher?

The word Jasher is not a proper name, but a Hebrew word meaning “upright.” Many through the centuries have referred to this book as the “Book of the Upright.”

 

What is the history behind the Book of Jasher?

According to rabbinic legend, the book of Jasher and several other ancient non-biblical Hebrew texts were brought from Jerusalem to Spain after the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. One of the officers of Titus, Sidrus by name, was a believer in the God of the Hebrews. He made sure several sacred texts made it out of Jerusalem and into the Spanish city of Sevilia for safe keeping. The Sephardic rabbinate kept the texts safe. In the year AD 1613, the first official printed Hebrew copy of the book of Jasher was published in Venice, Italy. The first translation from the Hebrew version of Jasher into English was completed in AD 1840.

 

Has the text been corrupted over the centuries?

The ancient scrolls of this book were in poor condition when the book was printed in Hebrew in 1613.

This text is not inspired by God, and was simply an extremely accurate history book, highly recommended by Scripture itself. The text does show signs of some corruption. There are obvious scribal errors – and more than likely embellishments – added to the original text. We must remember this scroll may be over 3,500 years old.

 

Examples in the Book of Jasher of people leaping on walls, breaking rocks, shrieking so loud as to cause damage, etc. may be ancient Hebrew idioms long forgotten or simply embellishments to the real text.

 

Here is a great example of an idiom causing confusion. Jasher mentions “lion faced men” doing battle. Some people have scoffed at this text thinking that Jasher is telling us there were men whose faces really looked like cat’s faces. The Hebrew idiom “lion-faced” means the same thing as the English idiom “lion-hearted.” Anyone who is lion-faced or lion-hearted is fearless in battle.

 

What about Jasher’s connection with Mormonism?

It is true that the Mormon publishing house, J. H. Parry and Company, first published the 1840 English translation of Jasher in 1887. This 1840 version is the same version that modern authors use.

 

The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons have, in the past, used extra-biblical texts to try to show a kind of open-mindedness. If they show you a real historical account, then you might be more susceptible to their false histories like the Book of Mormon. Mormonism has long been fascinated with the Book of Jasher, but it is not officially recommended because some portions of Jasher contradict Mormon teaching.

 

The Hebrew Calendar

The Christian calendar dates from the birth of Christ. If the calendar has not been corrupted, the year AD 2008 would mean Jesus Christ was born 2,008 years ago. The Hebrew Calendar dates from the creation of the world. The Christian year of AD 2008 corresponds to 5768 AM on the Jewish calendar. The abbreviation “AM” stands for “Anno Mundi,” which means the “Year of the World;” just as “AD” stands for “Anno Domini,” which means “in the year of our Lord.”

 

So if the Jewish calendar has not been corrupted, then the spring of AD 2008 was 5,768 years after Creation. Most fundamentalist Christians believe the Jewish calendar is off by at least 168 years. This, however, is outside the scope of this work. All the dates in the book of Jasher date from Creation to the Jewish people entering into the Promised Land. It only covers the first 2,516 years of human history.

 

For your ease I have placed the AM date in most chapters and the most notable events are given in Appendix A. The 1840 version of Jasher originally had several prefaces attached to the front. In order to clean up the book, I have moved these to the back of the book. If the reader wishes to study them, they can be found in Appendix C.

 


Edited by Brett, 26 February 2013 - 03:56 PM.


#2 Rick Bennett

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 04:56 PM

Can you provide any details on what "this version" of the Book of Jasher is? That phrase is used several times but there is no mention of any publication details for it.


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#3 Brett

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:19 PM

Can you provide any details on what "this version" of the Book of Jasher is? That phrase is used several times but there is no mention of any publication details for it.

 

It's commonly referred to as the 1840 version.  I was hoping Ken Johnson's intro wold have been helpful.  There's an 1829 version which just about everyone sees as a fraud, as it depicts Jasher as a man's name.  

 

The one translated in 1840 is more complete (91 chapters) and reads much better, and is remarkably compatible with the Torah.  

 

Here it is on Amazon, if that helps. 

Ancient Book Of Jasher



#4 Rick Bennett

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:44 PM

I saw the date but that wasn't enough to give me any publication details. The link was more accurate.

 

I will let others chime in on this. We try to gauge interest based on feedback. 


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#5 Han Kle

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:56 PM

The Sefer haYashar also translated as the book of the Just or Upright which is referred to in the bible is lost.

There are two works of scripture which bare this name.

The first one is a kabbalistic midrash — nice but mostly worthless for serious study.
It is definitely NOT 3500 years old. 
http://en.wikipedia....Sefer_haYashar_(midrash) 

 

There is an other one with the same name which is even worse:

It is an eighteenth-century forgery that alleges to be a translation of the “lost” Book of Jasher by Alcuin, an eighth-century English scholar.

Read for further information: http://en.wikipedia....Book_of_Jasher_(Pseudo-Jasher)
 

I think you can drop this topic.


Edited by Han Kle, 27 February 2013 - 12:10 AM.


#6 Brett

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 12:40 AM

The Sefer haYashar also translated as the book of the Just or Upright which is referred to in the bible is lost.

There are two works of scripture which bare this name.

The first one is a kabbalistic midrash — nice but mostly worthless for serious study.
It is definitely NOT 3500 years old. 
http://en.wikipedia....Sefer_haYashar_(midrash) 

 

There is an other one with the same name which is even worse:

It is an eighteenth-century forgery that alleges to be a translation of the “lost” Book of Jasher by Alcuin, an eighth-century English scholar.

Read for further information: http://en.wikipedia....Book_of_Jasher_(Pseudo-Jasher)
 

I think you can drop this topic.

 

Well I realize this is what some are saying, but Ken Johnson would disagree, and I'm very impressed with his research on the matter.  

 

But ultimately, you or I don't really know the origin of the 1840 translation.  You say it was not the book mentioned in that Bible and that that book was lost, but how do you prove this? That wikipedia article you linked was not very impressive, in fact it's pretty much blank.  I'll certainly keep an open mind and listen, but I see overreactions on both sides of this.  Some raise it to the level of scripture while others completely dismiss it out of hand.  I'd like to strike a balance.  

 

BTW, have you read it?  


Edited by Brett, 27 February 2013 - 12:54 AM.


#7 Han Kle

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:03 AM

Have I read it?

I have read plenty midrashim to know, what a midrash is.. and to recognize one, when I see it.
Everyone can read it here:

 

http://books.google....id=9kkpAAAAYAAJ

 

The wikipedia article about the midrash is quite precise on why this book is medieval. See 'content' for details.

No, I don't want this book burned ... ??


Edited by Han Kle, 27 February 2013 - 01:30 AM.


#8 Ken Simpson

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:14 AM

Hi Hans. that link goes nowhere (the google books one)

 

 

Would you kindly repost it?


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#9 Brett

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:15 AM

Have I read it?

I have read plenty midrashim to know, what a midrash is.. and to recognize one, when I see it.
Everyone can read it here:

http://books.google.de/books?id=9kkpAAAAYAAJ 

 

The wikipedia article about the midrash is quite precise on why this book is medieval. See 'content' for details.

No, I don't want this book burned ... ??

 

Okay, so just to make sure I am understanding your point, no you haven't read this particular book of Jasher, but regardless you're an expert on midrash, therefore you know it was copied from midrash even without reading it???

 

Er, I must be missing something. 

 

Have you read this particular book—the 1840 translation?  Some of it at least?  


Edited by Brett, 27 February 2013 - 01:17 AM.


#10 Han Kle

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:28 AM

Sorry!

This link should be better:

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

 

or this one

 

http://books.google....id=9kkpAAAAYAAJ

 

Brett, yes I have read some of it — and you can too!



#11 Brett

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:38 AM

Brett, yes I have read some of it — and you can too!

 

Oh fantastic.  So please make your case.  Explain why you think this particular version of Jasher is based on midrash.  Looking forward to your analysis.  



#12 Han Kle

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 10:40 AM

Based on Midrash?
It is a Midrash!

Not that a Midrash is bad in anyway but is it a candidate for accordance?
I doubt that.


The credibility of the edition:

First have a look at the preface. Page V: Spain France and Italy were tributary to Salomon...

Well any historian and any biblical scholar knows that the glory of Israel under King Solomon was not exactly what it is described in the bible...

 

Look what the Sefer haYashar ought to be:
The bible states it in two incidents:

 

Josh. 10,12 Then Joshua spoke to Jehovah in the day when Jehovah gave the Amorites up before the sons of Israel; and he said, Sun, stand still before the eyes of Israel in Gibeon! And, Moon stand still in the valley of Aijalon! 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stood still, until the nation was avenged on its foes. Is it not written in the Book of the Upright? Yea, the sun stood still in the middle of the heavens, and did not hasten to go down for a full day. 14 And there has not been a day such as that, before it or after it; for Jehovah listened to the voice of a man. For Jehovah fought for Israel.

 

2Sam. 1,17   And David sang this death-dirge over Saul, and over his son Jonathan; 18 and he said to teach the sons of Judah The Song of the Bow. Behold, it is written in the Book of Jashar: 19 The beauty of Israel is slain on your high places. How are the mighty fallen!

 

The Sefer haYashar ought to be a book of songs of heroes. The text in question is a elaborated version of the Torah - like a midrash.


As Wikipedia points us all to chapter X let's have a look:
The descendants live in interesting countries and places:

There is France... (verse 8)

Britain (verse 9)

the Danube flows (in verse 12)

Macedonia (in verse 13)

Lombardy and Italy (15)

 

there is Rome and the Tiber (16)

 

Most of these names are medieval and by far not antique (I didn't check them all but it is pretty clear!)

 

Another point:
Chapter one:
What is it that Cain slays his brother with?
Iron? How interesting!

Get the point?

Under David the Israelites were not yet able to produce iron ... but Cain uses it! Sure.

 

It is a nice book. Any historical insights you can obtain from this book are about medieval Italy or Spain, about medieval Judaism - nice read. But it is not interesting regarding the Genesis or the 'history' of the world. BTW the bible is not a history source...



#13 Rick Bennett

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 12:51 PM

With respect, this isn't the place to make a case for the authenticity of the work.

 

Thanks!


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#14 Brett

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:13 PM

Look what the Sefer haYashar ought to be:

The bible states it in two incidents:

 

Josh. 10,12 Then Joshua spoke to Jehovah in the day when Jehovah gave the Amorites up before the sons of Israel; and he said, Sun, stand still before the eyes of Israel in Gibeon! And, Moon stand still in the valley of Aijalon! 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stood still, until the nation was avenged on its foes. Is it not written in the Book of the Upright? Yea, the sun stood still in the middle of the heavens, and did not hasten to go down for a full day. 14 And there has not been a day such as that, before it or after it; for Jehovah listened to the voice of a man. For Jehovah fought for Israel.

 

2Sam. 1,17   And David sang this death-dirge over Saul, and over his son Jonathan; 18 and he said to teach the sons of Judah The Song of the Bow. Behold, it is written in the Book of Jashar: 19 The beauty of Israel is slain on your high places. How are the mighty fallen!

 

The Sefer haYashar ought to be a book of songs of heroes. The text in question is a elaborated version of the Torah - like a midrash.

 

Well I'm not one convinced of Jasher being an ancient history book, but I think you're taking  a bit of liberty with this argument.  Anything can be sang, right?  I mean how many hymns and Bible verses have been turned into songs.  None of the quotes in the Bible referring to Jasher identify it as a book of songs per se.  There's nothing in the name either that implies a song book, "book of the upright" or perhaps "the upright book."

 

So you have the Joshua verse which doesn't mention a song at all.  Perhaps you're noticing some poetry in there that i'm not seeing. Then in Samuel David is wanting the sons of Judah to sing the song of the bow presumably found in the book of Jasher. So it would appear it was like other ancient books containing a variety of literary devises.  

 

 

As Wikipedia points us all to chapter X let's have a look:

The descendants live in interesting countries and places:

There is France... (verse 8)

Britain (verse 9)

the Danube flows (in verse 12)

Macedonia (in verse 13)

Lombardy and Italy (15)

 

there is Rome and the Tiber (16)

 

Most of these names are medieval and by far not antique (I didn't check them all but it is pretty clear!)

 

Yes but even the Bible does this.  As you read scripture it is full of redactions and edits bringing the contemporary readers up to speed, especially on name changes in geographical locations.  In fact, as a history book, I would be suspicious if Jasher didn't contain corrections like that.  

 

If the Jasher history book quoted in the Bible was in existence all the way up to new testament times, scribes would have made these redactions. That doesn't mean it didn't have older roots.  

 

Another point:
Chapter one:
What is it that Cain slays his brother with?
Iron? How interesting!

Get the point?

 

No not really. Tubal-Cain became a master at metal craft and he was a close descendant of Cain.  It would make sense that Cain passed down some info about this to him that he was able to emulate and expand on.  

 

What is more, Cain was likely over a century old when he killed Abel.  Think about that.  Abel's replacement was Seth who was born when Adam was 130 years old. Thus we can safely surmise that Abel was killed sometime close to Seth's birth.  And if Cain was the firstborn and born soon after the banishment he could have had nearly a century of farming under his belt.  Is it really a stretch that after 100 years, these genetically superior men may have figured out how to work a bit with iron?  

 

Now bear in mind, I'm not making an argument for Jasher's authenticity, just merely addressing your arguments against it.  

 


Under David the Israelites were not yet able to produce iron ... but Cain uses it! Sure.

 

Oh, I can see now where you're going astray.  You actually don't know the book of Genesis.  Let me help you out here.

 

 

Gen. 4:22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-cain’s sister was Naamah.

 

 

You see, according to Genesis, the antediluvians were quite an advanced bunch.  It makes sense though, considering their long lifespans and genetic superiority.  After the flood, much was lost.  I have a feeling David wouldn't have much luck building a pyramid either!  Does that mean Giza's not really there?  

 

I always find it amazing, though, how little bible skeptics actually know about the Bible.  There are little nuggets everywhere that God leaves so that faith never has to be blind, to the genuine seeker.  


Edited by Brett, 27 February 2013 - 01:22 PM.


#15 Brett

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:15 PM

With respect, this isn't the place to make a case for the authenticity of the work.

 

Thanks!

 

Sorry I didn't want this to become a debate thread.  But this is a work I would like to examine more closely.  Accordance would probably help me study it in a way that may help me make up my mind on it.  As genuine as Han Kle's efforts are, as you can he's not shedding much light on the issue.   Let me know if it's even remotely a consideration.  


Edited by Brett, 27 February 2013 - 01:24 PM.


#16 Rick Bennett

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:28 PM

Sorry I didn't want this to become a debate thread.  But this is a work I would like to examine more closely.  Accordance would probably help me study it in a way that may help me make up my mind on it.  As genuine as Han Kle's efforts are, as you can he's not shedding much light on the issue.   Let me know if it's even remotely a consideration.  

 

Interesting timing that your detailed reply came after my request not to discuss the work in that manner. Please, let it lie there.

 

I cannot say at this point whether it is a possibility. The reason for posting it here is to gauge potential interest. So far, you're the only person who has expressed interest. In addition, we have a very long list of requests and future projects that we are about to sign contracts for. Even if there was substantial interest it would be a while before we could even get to it.

 

I hope this helps to answer your question.


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#17 Brett

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:39 PM

Interesting timing that your detailed reply came after my request not to discuss the work in that manner. Please, let it lie there.

 

Sorry I didn't see your post until after I had posted that reply. You must have just done that post this morning while I was working on the reply.  

 

I cannot say at this point whether it is a possibility. The reason for posting it here is to gauge potential interest. So far, you're the only person who has expressed interest. In addition, we have a very long list of requests and future projects that we are about to sign contracts for. Even if there was substantial interest it would be a while before we could even get to it.

 

I hope this helps to answer your question.

 

Alrighty then.  Hopefully my tribe will increase.  


Edited by Brett, 27 February 2013 - 01:46 PM.





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