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#1 fmcfee

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 02:31 PM

Hi,

 

I purchased the NT diagram module..I am beginner at Greek and am not familiar with sentence diagraming...I have a question concerning Titus 1:6....I don't know how to copy this diagram....but I have questions concerning the beginning structure....it starts with a chi χ (what does this represent?) ....a vertical divider and (καταστησεισ) a vertical line and (πρεσβυτερον)...what do these mean and refer to?....one is verb meaning appoint, the other a noun elders?....where did this come from and what does it mean?

 

....I would appreciate any help..

Thanks

 

Frank

PS I attached a screen shot...

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Edited by fmcfee, 14 March 2013 - 02:38 PM.


#2 James Tucker

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 03:36 PM

The  χ indicates the null subject, to the pro-drop verbal form. These two terms are located in the previous verse, indicated thus that the diagrammer has "filled" out the clause to include the protasis by using (<word>), as verse six begins with the apodosis. This is typical of the Reed-Kellog diagrammatical approach. Sometimes you might also see the Chi in a predicate position, to indicate a missing verb (perhaps linguistically a "Null" constituent).

 

 

EDIT: when the vertical line protrudes beyond the base, it portends a syntactical division between subject and predicate. These are reconstructed forms.


Edited by James Tucker, 14 March 2013 - 03:40 PM.


#3 fmcfee

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 04:17 PM

The  χ indicates the null subject, to the pro-drop verbal form. These two terms are located in the previous verse, indicated thus that the diagrammer has "filled" out the clause to include the protasis by using (<word>), as verse six begins with the apodosis. This is typical of the Reed-Kellog diagrammatical approach. Sometimes you might also see the Chi in a predicate position, to indicate a missing verb (perhaps linguistically a "Null" constituent).

 

 

EDIT: when the vertical line protrudes beyond the base, it portends a syntactical division between subject and predicate. These are reconstructed forms.

James,

 

Thanks .....I found a  PDF study done for Logos on James 1.19-20...it would nice to have some examples using Accordance ....I have watched Dr. J podcast....BTW when I move my cursor over those areas I decribed in the diagram,  I don't see anything in the "instant details".......I also have the syntax module and it does have some external written documentation covering the basics as well as information in the instant details....as usual, I might be in "over my head".....

 

Thanks for your quick response...

Frank


Edited by fmcfee, 14 March 2013 - 04:29 PM.


#4 James Tucker

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 04:23 PM

Unfortunately, I don't believe so. At the early production of some of the Syntax modules, a manual was promised. I've not the seen the reality of said manual, however. I do know some significant kinks have been smoothed over in the Syntax searching, so perhaps a manual is imminent.

 

As for the Reed-Kellog diagrams, I am unsure about a manual. I've not even looked into the Read-Me on this database, as I have regular contact of the lead researcher and creator of this database (he was a influential, former professor, but is now a influential friend). I believe some of the NT exegesis books will take up this method of Diagramming. I recall seeing it explained in Buist Fanning's recent Intro To NT, I believe it was co-authored with Bock.

 

Reed-Kellog diagramming was two semesters of my Greek degree, so I learned most of it by doing it—as is often the best way to learn! 

 

James


Edited by James Tucker, 14 March 2013 - 04:24 PM.


#5 Bob Kuo

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 04:43 PM

James, any other recommendations for books on Reed-Kellog diagramming?  I wasn't required to do this type of diagramming for my Greek classes but would love to learn.

 

Thanks,

 

Bob



#6 fmcfee

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 04:43 PM

Unfortunately, I don't believe so. At the early production of some of the Syntax modules, a manual was promised. I've not the seen the reality of said manual, however. I do know some significant kinks have been smoothed over in the Syntax searching, so perhaps a manual is imminent.

 

As for the Reed-Kellog diagrams, I am unsure about a manual. I've not even looked into the Read-Me on this database, as I have regular contact of the lead researcher and creator of this database (he was a influential, former professor, but is now a influential friend). I believe some of the NT exegesis books will take up this method of Diagramming. I recall seeing it explained in Buist Fanning's recent Intro To NT, I believe it was co-authored with Bock.

 

Reed-Kellog diagramming was two semesters of my Greek degree, so I learned most of it by doing it—as is often the best way to learn! 

 

James

James,

 

Wow!.....Thanks for your reply...(It looks like Logos in much further along in this area) .... as I said "I am in over my head" but I still look at the this as a learning experience  and it does give some help....I use a lot of Accordance resources to make up for my lack of training and experience and I have been amazed at what I can do...I appreciate your response!

Frank



#7 Abram K-J

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:14 PM

I'd never heard them called Reed-Kellogg diagrams, so am not sure if these two approaches are identical, but you could check out Tom Schreiner's chapter called, "Diagramming and Conducting a Grammatical Analysis," which I think is from his Interpreting the Pauline Epistles. You can probably find the contents of that chapter by Googling it.

 

Kantenwein's Diagrammatical Analysis is similar to Schreiner's approach. 


Edited by AbramKJ, 14 March 2013 - 07:16 PM.

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#8 Julie Falling

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:08 PM

Frank - Since you're new to Greek and not familiar with diagramming, a book that might really help is Cindy Vitto's Grammar by Diagram.  It deals only with English, but everything you learn can be applied to Greek (or any other language you want  to take on).  I got my copy from Amazon (asked for it for Christmas a year ago - my family thought I was nuts).  Well written.  Lots of exercises.  Answers in the back.  Easy to do on your own.


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#9 James Tucker

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:03 PM

I've not traced when or who implemented the Reed-Kellogg diagrammatical analysis to Greek studies, but it's on my list.

Bob, I am not entirely sure of books. I recall doing this in grammar school, as well as university grammar and style courses. For my Greek studies, my professor had an unpublished workbook he gave to us. I believe if you Google Reed-Kellogg you will find more than enough free resources.

Edited by James Tucker, 14 March 2013 - 10:10 PM.


#10 Daniel Semler

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:06 PM

Hi Frank,

 

  I have no business answering this question as I know only a smidgin or two of Greek and no diagramming to speak of. In any case I had a similar question to you and after looking for various sites on the web that could help me I found http://www.english-g...evolution.com/. Yes its English but she provides a bunch of examples and proceeds through essentially an online course in diagramming. It gave me an idea of what it was. Jury is still out as to whether I think it's for me or not. In any case I got the basic idea. I've not got any of her books but considered it.

 

Thx

D


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#11 Abram K-J

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:23 PM

Diagramming the Greek New Testament by Richard P. Belcher is also a good introduction to this kind of diagramming. It may be out of print and hard to find. Westminster Bookstore has it, though.

 

Just found an interesting quote from Carlton L. Winbery from the B-Greek list some time ago (the Winbery of Brooks and Winberry):

 

 

Concerning diagraming, the diagraming in our book is only in the section 
discussion types of sentences. There are several recent beginning grammars 
that do diagramming. There was a book from Southwestern Seminary that used 
the book of Philippians to teach diagraming of Greek sentences. I do not 
know if it is in print or even who the author was. I've never seen the 
need for diagraming myself and have observed that the diagrams usually 
follow the logic of English and not Greek, eg. Where you put the subject 
when there is no subject expressed except the ending of the verb.

 

The method Fee outlines in his NT Exegesis book (sentence flow) has also been helpful for me. But that isn't what the original poster was asking--Belcher and Schreiner's chapter I mentioned above are good places to begin for the kind of "diagrammatical analysis" found in the Accordance module.


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#12 Joel Brown

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 07:15 AM

Frank, I wanted to get back to some of your earlier questions.  First, there are two files posted about the Syntax that are a great introduction: "Getting Started With Syntax" and "Holmstedt Paper".  The former discusses the beginnings of using the Syntax with Accordance, the latter on the principles behind the database.  You can download them both from here:  http://www.accordanc...ces/files/home/ .  You can  also check out our exhaustive in-app Help from the Help menu -> Accordance Help.  Within here, search for Syntax, or navigate to Biblical Research and Analyses > Greek and Hebrew Syntax > Greek and Hebrew Syntax, and you'll find links to both papers and other information on the matter. 

 

Second, Instant Details should be working over each of the grammatical elements within your diagram, but for words that came from previous verses, I don't believe they'll show up.  So, you'll get the grammatical information from τίς, but not from ἐστιν, but not from καταστήσεις.


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#13 fmcfee

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:12 PM

Frank - Since you're new to Greek and not familiar with diagramming, a book that might really help is Cindy Vitto's Grammar by Diagram.  It deals only with English, but everything you learn can be applied to Greek (or any other language you want  to take on).  I got my copy from Amazon (asked for it for Christmas a year ago - my family thought I was nuts).  Well written.  Lots of exercises.  Answers in the back.  Easy to do on your own.

Julie,

 

Thanks for  the suggestion but I am looking to learn the "highlights" and not the details.....I "learned" my Greek and Hebrew by taking DVD courses from Mounce (BBG) and VanPelt (BBH)..both excellent teachers....I did not try and memorize grammar, vocabulary but concentrated on understanding verbs,etc and their impact on translations...I want to begin to understand how the languages work....I use Accordance for parsing and other details..so my philosophy is to use electronic tools like Accordance where possible....I spent most of my time in studying the Bible books "verse by verse" in an on-line study.....I realize that my "depth" of learning  is limited  but I am amazed at how much I have learned with "resources" I have....thanks so much for your reply

 

Frank



#14 fmcfee

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:19 PM

Frank, I wanted to get back to some of your earlier questions.  First, there are two files posted about the Syntax that are a great introduction: "Getting Started With Syntax" and "Holmstedt Paper".  The former discusses the beginnings of using the Syntax with Accordance, the latter on the principles behind the database.  You can download them both from here:  http://www.accordanc...ces/files/home/ .  You can  also check out our exhaustive in-app Help from the Help menu -> Accordance Help.  Within here, search for Syntax, or navigate to Biblical Research and Analyses > Greek and Hebrew Syntax > Greek and Hebrew Syntax, and you'll find links to both papers and other information on the matter. 

 

Second, Instant Details should be working over each of the grammatical elements within your diagram, but for words that came from previous verses, I don't believe they'll show up.  So, you'll get the grammatical information from τίς, but not from ἐστιν, but not from καταστήσεις.

Joel,

 

I have read Holmstedt paper on Syntax and have the module and it has helped me a a lot....I agree with you about the instant details and that is my point that
"words from previous verses don't highlight"....I wish they did but understand about "priorities" in software design and perhaps in a future release this might be considered....thanks for your help.

Frank



#15 fmcfee

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:22 PM

Hi Frank,

 

  I have no business answering this question as I know only a smidgin or two of Greek and no diagramming to speak of. In any case I had a similar question to you and after looking for various sites on the web that could help me I found http://www.english-g...evolution.com/. Yes its English but she provides a bunch of examples and proceeds through essentially an online course in diagramming. It gave me an idea of what it was. Jury is still out as to whether I think it's for me or not. In any case I got the basic idea. I've not got any of her books but considered it.

 

Thx

D

 

D,

 

Thanks for your suggestion....see my reply to Julie.....I am only interested in learning the "highlights"...

 

Frank






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