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Relationship of NA and GNT modules and upgrades


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#1 Daniel Semler

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:17 PM

Hi All,

 

  I'm not sure exactly where to address this question and perhaps it will help to have this clarified in the forum.

 

  I have the GNT-T and every time I check for App updates I see a paid upgrade to the NA27-T.  I have tended to ignore this upgrade because I also have the syntax module which is paired with GNT-T and I don't know whether that will break the syntax module if I upgrade. Notwithstanding that I also have the UBS with Apparatus and as yet text criticism has to be squeezed in between bookshelf construction and Greek :)

 

  Now I see in the recent NA28 announcement email that a GNT28-T is available. I see that there is an upgrade to GNT28-T available from GNT-T yet this does not show up in me Check for Update even in Paid Upgrades. I don't know if that matters or not but it seems curious to me. Also there is a mention that the GNT28-T will sync with a forthcoming Syntax module.

 

  All combined this prompts a number of questions some of which will probably be redundant when others are answered but here goes :

 

  1. Are the Greek Syntax modules compatible with the NA27/28-T ?

  2. Is the forthcoming syntax module compatible with GNT-T or is it specifically designed to work with GNT28-T ?

  3. If the Syntax Modules are peculiar to a specific GNT*-T will the highly anticipated full NT syntax module be released for both variants ?

  4. Finally, if one was to upgrade the GNT-T that I have to one of GNT28-T or NA28-T (given a positive answer to 2 above) will the current Syntax Module I have continue to work ?

 

Many thanx

D

 


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#2 JonathanHuber

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:44 PM

I don't know the answer to all of your questions, but the upgrade from GNT-T to NA28-T is supposed to include GNT28-T but that didn't install for me. If there are plans to make the syntax work with the new GNT module, it would be helpful to have this upgrade sorted out. 

 

However, adding the NA28-T will not make the syntax stop working. It's just currently set up to work only with the GNT-T so you'll have to use that module for syntax searches and cross-highlighting with the syntax module.



#3 Ken Simpson

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:47 AM

Hi Daniel,

I have the GNT28-T, the syntax modules do not (yet) work with it. There will be a release specific for that text at some stage. Upgrading will not stop the GNT syntax working with your GNT-T text


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#4 Helen Brown

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:18 AM

  1. Are the Greek Syntax modules compatible with the NA27/28-T ?

  2. Is the forthcoming syntax module compatible with GNT-T or is it specifically designed to work with GNT28-T ?

  3. If the Syntax Modules are peculiar to a specific GNT*-T will the highly anticipated full NT syntax module be released for both variants ?

  4. Finally, if one was to upgrade the GNT-T that I have to one of GNT28-T or NA28-T (given a positive answer to 2 above) will the current Syntax Module I have continue to work ?

 

Daniel, sorry for the confusion. The Paid Upgrades and the Upgrade Calculator docs are now updated and should give current information.

 

The GNT.syntax works only with GNT-T, but we'll have a free upgrade to GNT28-T.syntax which will be compatible with the GNT28-T. I expect that we'll add the new books only to the GNT28-T.syntax as it will be extra work to maintain two databases.

 

The syntax modules do not work with the texts with sigla, as the sigla throw off the synchronization.

 

We will give the GNT28-T at no charge to users who own both the GNT-T and the NA28-T, whichever upgrade path they choose. If it isn't added to your account within a day or two, please request it.

 

I hope this helps to clear up the confusion.


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#5 jfidel

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:30 AM

Helen,

I have GNT-T and the NT syntax database. When the NT database is complete will it be compatible with GNT-T or only GNT28-T. It sounds as if GNT28-T will be required t use the complete syntax database, but is not compatible now? So a purchase at some point of GNT28-T will be necessary to use the complete NT syntax database? Just wanting to confirm and determine the timing of all of this.



#6 Daniel Semler

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:44 AM

Hi Helen, Ken,

 

Ok so I'm going to start sounding a bit dense in this post but you never learn if you don't ask :)

 

It sounds like upgrading to GNT28-T is not so much upgrading the GNT-T text as installing the 28 next to it. The same would appear to be true of the "upgrade" to NA28-T. Thus the existing GNT-T.syntax that I have will not break because the GNT-T itself will remain in place. Am I understanding this correctly ?

 

Like jfidel above I am considering how to stage this upgrade so that I do not end up with a non-functional syntax module, which I actively use. Ken's and Jonathan's posts suggest my understanding above but I just want to confirm that. If the above is true I presume the theory is that once one has upgraded one can either retain or delete the GNT-T/NA27 (though I actually don't have the NA27 - I have the UBS4 with App - which will be the source of more questions in a bit). Is that so ?

 

Thx

D


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Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop

      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i5 Ivy Bridge

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#7 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:23 PM

Yes, I agree this can be a bit confusing. Just be glad you're not on this end, trying to juggle publishers' releases and their policies regarding them, collection updates, link updates, and syntactical database updates! I assure you that it gets a bit crazy around the office at times.

 

That said, here's what I propose to our users.

 

First, if you need the latest and greatest GNT available, with all the bells and whistles (updated text, apparatus, and cross-references), by all means purchase the NA28-T. Since it includes siglia in the text, it will not be able to support the GNT.syntax, but that was true of the NA27-T, too. Siglia and syntax look like they are going to remain incompatible for the foreseeable future. There won't be a single GNT that does it all.

 

Second, I suggest that you continue to use the GNT-T to access the syntactical database until we update the GN28T-T to support it. Once it does, I then recommend shifting to the GN28T-T, as it will have an updated syntax (which will reflect the latest text) and include the remainder of the NT syntactical database [though the latter may well still come in stages]. We'll notify everyone when we release this update. Meanwhile, don't worry about it.

 

Hope this helps!


Edited by Timothy Jenney, 21 May 2013 - 12:25 PM.

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#8 Ken Simpson

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:06 PM

Hi Daniel,

yes, Upgrading does not "break" anything and the 2 texts live happily (if at some future time somewhat redundantly) next to each other.

 

AS Dr J suggests, there is probably not a lot of point going to the GNT28 as your go to Greek just yet (if syntaxing is what you're after) you will break nothing by keeping with the GNT-T. The only thing will be the few minor variants in the redacted text in the catholic epistles.

 

Of course this also applies to those of us that use the UBS4, since that text will now vary with the NA27...in  a way that it hasn't really for some time.

 

If as you say, you use the UBS4, then I wouldn't upgrade anything unless you really need the NA28. Don't go the GNT28 until the full syntax becomes available.


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Ken
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#9 Daniel Semler

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:56 PM

Hi Ken, Tim,

 

  Thanx. This all makes sense to me. In fact you confirmed the one thing I was going to hit on in my reply to Tim but I was then distracted by other things. The basic point is that the use of the word "upgrade" led me to believe that the GNT-T module would be in some way altered by the NA module. Not so and in fact they as both have their own copy of the GNT text. That's cool.

 

  And yes the advice to wait for a GNT28-T compatible syntax seems the best approach. As to UBS versus NA I will leave that issue for another day.

 

Thx All.

D


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#10 Ken Simpson

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:30 PM

Hi Daniel,

the hub of the question I think re the GNT28 is what will you use as your apparatused text. If the UBS4, then stick with the GNT-T and syntax (who knows what the UBS5 will be like).

 

Otherwise your GNT text will be different to the text you need as your apparatus text.


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#11 Daniel Semler

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:50 PM

That's a good point. I don't do much apparatus work right now - well almost none - but its something to consider when I do.

And now you've done it - I'll have to go back and consider UBS versus NA again and work out why I chose the route I did :)

 

Good thing I have lots of spare time :)

 

Thx

D


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Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop

      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i5 Ivy Bridge

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#12 Jonathan C. Borland

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:42 PM

I think UBSGNT5 is supposed to be published later this year!



#13 James Tucker

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:16 PM

What would be of utmost importance is the Editio Critica Maior (ECM) to accompany in a fully layered module. In addition, it would be fantastic to add an Accordance generated database that enables users to easily create distribution charts, locating each witness within its respective text association, date, and geographical locale.


Edited by J. T., 21 May 2013 - 09:16 PM.


#14 Rick Bennett

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:12 PM

What would be of utmost importance is the Editio Critica Maior (ECM) to accompany in a fully layered module. In addition, it would be fantastic to add an Accordance generated database that enables users to easily create distribution charts, locating each witness within its respective text association, date, and geographical locale.

 

I imagine we'll eventually get the ECM, especially when it is more complete.


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#15 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:50 AM

Just a reminder, everyone...

 

IMO the best GNT critical apparatus is not tied to a specific text edition, it is the CNTTS module: http://www.accordanc...rch.php?q=CNTTS. While it is probably overkill for some, I continue to be very impressed by its comprehensiveness and useability.


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#16 Matthew Burgess

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:30 PM

Obviously, the term "best apparatus" is somewhat subjective, and everyone will have different opinions on the subject!   ;)  

 

To me, the CNTTS apparatus is excellent in many respects, especially if you're interested in issues such as spelling discrepancies between various manuscripts and the usage of nomina sacra (neither of which are treated significantly in the German Bible Society apparatuses).  However, it has some drawbacks, such as the following: 1) versional and patristic evidence are treated very rarely, if at all, meaning that important aspects of New Testament textual criticism are not in view; 2) the Nestle-Aland editions and the Editio Critica Maior remain the standard editions used by the scholarly community, meaning that readers must use these ediitons in order to interpret the secondary literature; 3) the system of notation is different than those of other apparatuses, and requires an additional learning curve; 4) as Dr. J. mentioned, the sheer amount of information is likely overwhelming to a newcomer to textual criticism.

 

With these issues in mind, I would recommend the CNTTS apparatus to those intererested in specific aspects of textual criticism that it is best suited to address (e.g., those mentioned above) or as an additional tool that can provide more information on specific verses or passages.  If I had to purchase a single apparatus, it wouldn't be my first choice.  In my own workflow, I I usually begin with NA-27 and NA-28.  If I want more detail, I move to UBS and Metzger's Textual Commentary (which usually include more information than NA-27 and NA-28 in the variants that they cover), and then to CNTTS and Tischendorf (which, as Julie and I have discovered through some of her recent questions, still has a lot of value).

 

For Daniel, I would add that while many people view the NA and UBS apparatuses as an "either/or," I've always viewed them more as a "both/and."  I think that they work best when used together.       


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#17 Yohanan

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:58 AM

That was an error, sorry.


Edited by Yohanan, 24 May 2013 - 03:01 AM.


#18 Julie Falling

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 04:51 PM

I think UBSGNT5 is supposed to be published later this year!

 

Jonathan - Where did you hear/read that?  It would be welcome!  I did a web search and couldn't find anything.


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#19 Daniel Semler

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 05:00 PM

I could have sworn I posted a thanx to Tim and Matthew on the text crit. but apparently I blanked on hitting post. Done that sort of thing a couple of times this week. Oops. Anyhow thanx.

 

And I've now returned to getting my feet wet in text crit. with Parker's introductory text. Very interesting. His second chapter has got me wondering about computer based collation software. I presume such, or its kin, exists but haven't checked yet. And the apparatus stuff starts to look like multiple collations. Hmmm.....

 

As to UBS5 I could only find indications it was underway not when it would be published.

 

Thx
D


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      OSX 10.9 (Mavericks)                    Win 7 Professional x64 SP1


#20 James Tucker

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 05:11 PM

Daniel, 

 

I've not read "Parker," but the computer plays varying degrees in Text Critical Research. I doubt you will find any public software that does such a thing, as most who use algorithms develop their applications for their own purposes (e.g., Menachem Cohen at Bar-Ilan, etc.)

 

Even within LXX research, the computer is being efficaciously used to discern recension relationships (e.g., see Hiebert and Dykstra HERE).

 

I too have developed several algorithms for versional analysis. My specific work expands upon what CATSS has already done, but focuses more on translation technique questions and text critical questions. I don't plan to make this application public at this time.


Edited by J. T., 25 May 2013 - 05:11 PM.





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