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Can Version 6 Do the Following?


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#1 Tom

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Posted 29 May 2005 - 11:23 PM

Not having version 6, and not seeing them listed as new capabilities in version 6, can version 6 do the following?

´ Assign shortcut keys to various actions that have no shortcut key assignment?
´ (related) Have basic format shortcut keys been assigned to format text--such as commmand + b for bold, command + i for italics, etc.?
´ Ability to highlight text in references like can be done in biblical text panes?
´ Ability to cycle through open windows with keyboard. So that command-shift (or some such combination) cycles open windows to the front?

Has there been any consideration to add these?

If anybody knows the answer to any of these questions, I'd appreciate hearing from you.
Tom
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#2 David Glasgow

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 07:01 AM

Hi Tomˇ

´ I use QuicKeys (from Startly Technologies) to supplement, supersede, and universalize the keyboard shortcuts in Accordance (and just about every other application on my system, actually)ˇothers may have suggestions for different apps that provide similar functionality.

´ I don't think there's a way to highlight references (yet?), because of the way highlights are linked to verses. But I'm sure an actual Oaktree wizard will provide further insight on that point.

´ Cycling through open windows is a pair of OS-wide shortcutsˇCommand-Grave and Command-Shift-Grave will cycle you in opposite directions through the open windows of your frontmost application. (Grave is [`], the downward-sloping accent character. On my PowerBook keyboard, at least, it's up in the top left corner with the tilde [~] as its "shifted" character.) Similarly, Command-Tab and Command-Shift-Tab cycle through open applications.

Hope that helps.

:)
D
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#3 Joel Brown

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 08:24 AM

Good hint on the Command-`. I was unaware of that too. An additional thing you can do for shortcuts is built into OS X (I think 10.3 they implemented it). Go to System Preferences, click on the Keyboard & Mouse Pref Pane, and select the Keyboard Shortcuts tab. Here you see some nifty system shortcuts you may or may not be aware of. However, its real power happens when you hit the Plus button at the bottom. This brings up a little sheet that lets you select one or all applications at the bottom (so select your application), enter in the Menu Command you want Short-cutted, and put in the combination you want. I am pretty sure it can also override existing commands.

Unfortunately, in just now testing this, I can't get it to work in non-Cocoa applications. You can enter commands, but they simply flash the menu, rather than provide any functionality. Nonetheless, its a useful feature for other Cocoa apps.
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#4 Helen Brown

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 03:29 PM

Not having version 6, and not seeing them listed as new capabilities in version 6, can version 6 do the following?

´ Assign shortcut keys to various actions that have no shortcut key assignment?
´ (related) Have basic format shortcut keys been assigned to format text--such as commmand + b for bold, command + i for italics, etc.?
´ Ability to highlight text in references like can be done in biblical text panes?
´ Ability to cycle through open windows with keyboard. So that command-shift (or some such combination) cycles open windows to the front?

Has there been any consideration to add these?

If anybody knows the answer to any of these questions, I'd appreciate hearing from you.
Tom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tom:
  • If Joe Weaks was around, he would be pointing you to his workarounds with KeyQuencher for assigning shortcuts. You can find them here.
  • We have used up all the basic format keys for other shortcuts, as editing text is not a primary function of Accordance. The Text palette, which can be opened in the Window menu, lets you just click to format the text.
  • Sorry, highlighting the text of tools (I assume that's what you mean by References) is a major undertaking, and not on the horizon.
  • There is a complete list of keyboard shortcuts in the Reference section of the Help. Here are some relevant ones:
  • Tab goes between entry box and reference box
  • Shift-tab selects the next text pane
  • Option-tab cycles through open windows and workspaces
  • Control-tab cycles through open tabs (to the right)
  • Shift-control-tab cycles through open tabs (to the left)
  • Command-tab cycles through all open programs
You can try out the features of version 6 in the downloadable demo of 6.1, and read the lists of New Features in 6.0 and New Features Since 6.0.

Even better, bite the bullet and get the upgrade, most people rave about it!
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#5 Joe Weaks

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 12:03 AM

If Joe Weaks was around, he would be pointing you to his workarounds with KeyQuencher for assigning shortcuts. You can find them here.

Actually, KeyQuencer was orphaned in Classic. So, if Tom is using system 9.x, then he should definitely check out KeyQuencer... otherwise, David's recommendation is mine as well. There are an increasing number of other options, cheaper ones, that will add custom keyboard functions.
If you're interested in customizing and automating your workflow, and haven't heard of Quickeys, then you're missing out.
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#6 Tom

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 02:24 PM

ć if Tom is using system 9.x, then he should definitely check out KeyQuencer...

No, I'm using 10. In fact, I wonder how many (what percentage) of Accordance user's still use OS 9. I would almost be willing to bet (can I morally do that? :D ) that VERY few still do. I will be interested to see what the results are for the poll being taken in the "Mainly Macintosh" forum.

If you're interested in customizing and automating your workflow, and haven't heard of Quickeys, then you're missing out


Yes I have heard of it, but at $100, it is a steep price to pay for what I am looking for (adding a few text formatting shortcut keys to use in my personal notes within Accordance, plus a few other shortcuts). Seems like user-configurable keyboard shortcuts could be implemented into Accordance (as is the case with so many apps nowadays).


There are an increasing number of other options, cheaper ones, that will add custom keyboard functions


Can you elaborate on this? What options might that be?

Tom

Edited by Tom, 02 June 2005 - 02:32 PM.

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#7 Mick Matousek

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 11:34 PM

There are an increasing number of other options, cheaper ones, that will add custom keyboard functions


Can you elaborate on this? What options might that be?

Tom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I recommend iKey as a less expensive MacOS X alternative.
http://scriptsoftware.com/ikey/

It will allow you to add or change any of the keyboard shortcuts of Accordance to your liking.

It will allow you to create keyboard shortcuts for font formatting menu and submenu choices in user notes.

At $30 and free trial download, it is hard to beat.

Edited by Mick Matousek, 02 June 2005 - 11:35 PM.


#8 Ron Webber

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 10:31 AM

Also if you only want to assign shortcut keys to your menu items, Menu Master by Unsanity is hard to beat at $10. It lets you assign menu shortcuts on the fly.

#9 Tom

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 12:17 PM

Menu Master by Unsanity is hard to beat at $10. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Thanks Ron, I am aware of Menu Master, unfortunately there are horrible incompatibilities using in on my iBook and OS 10.3.9. It conflicts with the Airport menubar item, as well as others. I'm not sure, being a haxie app. if it is a widespread problem, or if it is just on my particular system. I have tried emailing them for help, but they have never returned my email. I had high hopes initially, this was exactly what I am looking for, and at $10 it would be, as you said, hard to beat.

I still hold out hope that Accordance will one day allow us to assign keyboard shortcuts. Though it is not primarily a word processor application, the way formatting is set up now, discourages a user to use the "My Notes" feature very extensively. That is a shame, since I use it for my personal study time.

I will try out Mick's suggestion of iKeys.

Thanks,
Tom

Edited by Tom, 03 June 2005 - 12:18 PM.

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#10 Joe Weaks

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 01:00 PM

From Helen:
We have used up all the basic format keys for other shortcuts, as editing text is not a primary function of Accordance. The Text palette, which can be opened in the Window menu, lets you just click to format the text.

From Tom:
I still hold out hope that Accordance will one day allow us to assign keyboard shortcuts. Though it is not primarily a word processor application, the way formatting is set up now, discourages a user to use the "My Notes" feature very extensively.


I think you'll be holding out rather indefinitely. While it is true that command Command+ b, i, and u are taken, there's no reason that OakTree couldn't make those key combos context sensitive, so that they would work as expected when the front window is a currently an edit User Tool/Note window.
  • Command+ b would change from toggling Instant Details Box to Bold. That box does nothing when an Edit window is frontmost anyway.
  • Command+ i would change from tiling windows to Italic. This is perhaps a possible loss, but still available via the Windows menu.
  • Command+ u has no functionality when an Edit Tool window is active.
  • Command+ p could change from Print to Plain. Who wants to print an edit window? Could still use menu.
  • Command+ + and - and = could be Superscript, Subscript, and Level.
  • You could do things with more options, if you wanted to be clever. Command+ 0, 2, 4, 8 could be Change Font Size to 10, 12, 14, 18 respectively. (Noone needs a construct window while editing a tool, though you could still use the menu.)
  • Command+ e for English, g for Greek, y for Yehudit and r for Rosetta could also change fonts. None of those are used when an Edit window is frontmost. (Wouldn't want to remap Command+ h from Hide.)
Some of the keycombos are from the olden days and might should've been altered when new functions came along. They've really done a good bit of this a couple revisions ago, and they revamped the Menus for the last major upgrade (but it's still a train wreck).

My 3ó. (Seemed a bit more than 2. :D )

Edited by Joe Weaks, 03 June 2005 - 01:03 PM.

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#11 Joel Brown

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 03:13 PM

While I think this is a good idea, personally I would lean more to some different key commands. I have a strong impression in my mind of Command-T being the Plain (T)ext option, not P. I think thats cause in every app, P is saved for Print. Likewise, having Print something aside from P (or nothing at all) probably violates some Apple UI guidelines. Likewise, I'd personally not do the Command-0,2,4,8 stuff and rather use Command + and - for increase and decrease font size, ala the existing "aA" button. Also, I personally wouldn't be a fan of commands for the fonts (like what is your "English" font? And, what if you don't use yehutit, but rather some other Hebrew alternative... [I dunno, I'm just guessing here, I don't really do much hebrew]).

I do agree in general, though. I've seen many apps change their menus depending on the front window, so I imagine its not *too* much work for accordance to do that. And I agree, a lot of the functions being reserved aren't used in the Edit windows, so it wouldn't be a loss. I wouldn't want to remap functional commands, though (like tiling), so that would (IMO) just remain unmapped, or change the tile one alltogether universally.
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#12 Tom

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 10:40 PM

Am I missing something here? Why couldn't:

option + command + b, be assigned to produce bold?
option + command + i, be assigned to produce italic?
option + command + u, be assigned to produce underline?

and so forth. I don't see these commands listed in the shortcut pdf document.

Better yet, give me the option of mapping *my* keystokes to the actions I want, like so many applications let me do now (Word, Canvas, etc).

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#13 Mick Matousek

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 01:25 PM

Since all these shortcuts can be accomplished today thru utilities, ie. iKey, I wonder whether this is the best use of finite resources for OakTree. I imagine it is not easy to determine where to allocate programming resources. Perhaps a poll on the forum might provide some feedback from the user community on the importance of user definable shortcuts.
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#14 Tom

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 10:11 PM

Tried iKey, too hard to master. It's way too much for what I'm wanting. You can do all sorts of actions that are key-assignable. I just want to add shortcut keys to menu (and submenu) items that Accordance doesn't have. It was difficult to figure out how to do this (so hard, in fact, I'm not even sure iKeys works with the carbon Accordance. Does anybody successfully use these two programs together? I use Spellcatcher X [a GREAT program] with limited functionality with Accordance because of its carbon status).

Plus, iKey cost $30. OK if you wanted to use the full power of the program. I don't need to.

How much "programming resources" would it take to map logical shortcut keys (like the one's listed in my previous post?) to common formatting functions? Why not do this long ago? Or at least between "major" upgrades of 5x and 6x?

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#15 Joe Weaks

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 03:08 PM

While I think this is a good idea, personally I would lean more to some different key commands.ć I have a strong impression in my mind of Command-T being the Plain (T)ext option, not P.ć I think thats cause in every app, P is saved for Print.ć Likewise, having Print something aside from P (or nothing at all) probably violates some Apple UI guidelines.ć Likewise, I'd personally not do the Command-0,2,4,8 stuff and rather use Command + and - for increase and decrease font size, ala the existing "aA" button.ć Also, I personally wouldn't be a fan of commands for the fonts (like what is your "English" font?ć And, what if you don't use yehutit, but rather some other Hebrew alternative... [I dunno, I'm just guessing here, I don't really do much hebrew]).

I do agree in general, though.ć I've seen many apps change their menus depending on the front window, so I imagine its not *too* much work for accordance to do that.ć And I agree, a lot of the functions being reserved aren't used in the Edit windows, so it wouldn't be a loss.ć I wouldn't want to remap functional commands, though (like tiling), so that would (IMO) just remain unmapped, or change the tile one alltogether universally.

You're right on alot of that, Joel. Though, there is precedence for command p having another function when it's not needed to print. Frankly, noone would ever think to Print an Edit window... the notion is rather silly.
You betray a little "unknowledge" regarding why one can use only one English font (notice how I made up a word instead of saying ignorance). Essentially, you only get one English font, hence the potential simplification.
I also agree that command h should NOT ever be overridden. I hope OakTree is not afraid to begin from the ground up on key combo assignments, and even menus for the version 7. The menu setup actually displays alot of thoughtful and careful consideration (as opposed to an actual train wreck), but it does seem in a few instances that they've had to force round pegs into square holes.

Edited by Joe Weaks, 08 June 2005 - 03:11 PM.

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#16 Joel Brown

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 04:31 PM

Actually, though your analysis of my unknowledge is correct, technically I still was right. Though the User Tools allow only English, Greek, Hebrew, and Rosetta, editing a User Notes file allows any of your system fonts, from what I can tell.
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