Michel Gilbert Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) Hi, I copied Abram's title post and the following from http://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/9248-set-hebrew-to-display-as-unpointed-text/ "This would be a great feature to have... reading unpointed Hebrew, difficult as it is, is good practice." To clarify, just the tagged Hebrew consonantal text. I have no idea what would be involved in programming this. But I would be willing to pay for it in Acc 12 or following. Such a feature coupled with the Hebrew Construct search capabilities would really set Acc apart for the HB scholar. If the consonantal text was all in Unicode, one could even change the font to a Paleo-Hebrew or Proto-Canaanite one (depending on your scholarly persuasion and where you were in the HB). This would not only set Acc apart for good, but could even cause some heart attacks. It’s a risk I would be willing to take. I'd even sign a waiver form. Regards, Michel [added word "tagged"] Edited September 25, 2015 by Michel Gilbert 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 If there is an unpointed Hebrew text you should be able to do a User Bible out of it. Of course ripping the pointing from a tagged text would be better because of the tagging still being present. Actually you could do this for Greek also. Perhaps a diacritic free mode ? Incidentally, as a complete aside, Buth's Hebrew training material presents both pointed and unpointed text for training. I was told modern Hebrew books for teaching school children have vowels. I don't know personally but it would make sense. thx D 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 Hi Daniel, A tagged consonantal text is already available in BW, but you can't change the font. Since I own BW10, I already read an unpointed HB text. BW excels in a few areas. But it doesn't have a syntax database, and Acc's GUI is much easier to use. I can't think of any HB scholar who wouldn't be drawn to the total package of a tagged consonantal text, Unicode font switchability, a GUI for searches, and a syntax database. I think Acc is in the best position to offer the package first. I would even consider working for Acc on such a project. I agree about the Greek. It is true that some groups of young school children learn to read with vowels. If I ever write a second year Hebrew grammar (been thinking about it for years), I would include a section on unpointed texts and comparative Semitics. Regards, Michel 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Just a for fun : It ain't tagged and there is no syntax but ... Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farcas Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Agreed. An unpointed presentation of the HB tagged text would be a welcomed edition (along with Aramaic and Greek unaccented texts etc). And I think I'm in good company in requesting this. In a presentation on Accordance I gave at Harvard, Peter Machinist's first question was for this very feature. Others agreed: presenting the text in different ways would be a help. Thanks! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian W. Davidson Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I'd like to be able to turn the Hebrew vowels and accents on and off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen Brown Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 You can turn these off for export, but it's not a trivial programming task to allow them to be turned off in the display, and this is why we have not offered that option despite many requests over the years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 Hi Helen, I suppose it would be even more difficult to program a paleo-Hebrew Unicode text. If Acc replaced final forms and removed vowel letters to produce such a text, scholars would disagree with some of the decisions. But, as long as they could edit the text, e.g., add or delete a consonant, redivide or emend words, redirect lexical entries, and edit the syntax database (a lot of this would be for their students), a base text would save them some time doing it all themselves. For those so inclined, the same text and features could also be used to produce a proto-Canaanitic text for parts of the Bible. HB scholars who do their research in the context of the ANE would pay handsomely for such a module/program. I think it would be worth as much as the Original Languages Collection with Syntax Databases, or as much as BW10, i.e., instead of the big three Bible Software programs, there would be the big four. However, I'm under no illusion that this will happen in Acc. But it is nice to dream. And, I think all of us ANE/HB scholars, Machinist included, have the same one. Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Jenney Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Hmmm...., just dreaming here, but it seems to me that the following workflow could produce such a text: Copy a section of the HMT, stripping all marks from the text (Accordance>Preferences>Export>Hebrew) and paste it into a text editing program. Pick a proto-Hebrew text, like one of those offered here (https://www.linguistsoftware.com/lphu.htm#AradLevelVILSU), search and replace any character mismatches, then switch the font to proto-Hebrew. The proto-Hebrew text could then be pasted into a imported into Accordance as Bible (which would mean it could not be edited). Alternately, someone with a lot of time on their hands could make it into a User Note and paste the modified text in verse-by-verse. The User Note could then be edited at will. I wonder if Peter Machinist has enough grad students for such a project. Just a thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 That's close to what I did here : http://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/16753-set-hebrew-to-display-as-unpointed-text/?do=findComment&comment=82283 I didn't do any corrections. But that is an image of a User Bible import of a bit of Jonah with a Paleo-Hebrew font. You can get the unpointed text easily enough to do this and I believe it's within the licensed use for non-commercial projects. Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Jenney Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Nice, Daniel! I was amazed at the variety and quality of the various early Hebrew fonts Linguist Software offers. Since we can export from Accordance in SuperHebrew (which is a LS font), I wonder what the chance is that the various proto-fonts have the same character mapping? Sure would make everything easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Yep, that's where my little experiment broke down I just don't have the requisite language knowledge. BTW, I used http://opensiddur.org/tools/fonts/specifically in the example about Yoram Gnat's Hebrew Paleo Qumran. Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 I wonder what the chance is that the various proto-fonts have the same character mapping? Sure would make everything easier. Hi, All Unicode Proto/Paleo consonants have the same values; the Unicode values for the final forms ך ם ן ף ץ are used for כ מ נ פ צ in initial and medial positions. All you have to do is select a Unicode Hebrew consonantal text, change to a Proto/Paleo font, and clean up, mark, edit, etc. But it is very tedious. Hmmm...., just dreaming here, but it seems to me that the following workflow could produce such a text . . . I already do something similar, the details don't matter. But my dream is for a Paleo-Hebrew program. Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Ok so what I did earlier cannot be that far off. Cool. It should be possible to take the Tanakh consonantal text and create a full user bible from it via scripting. I looked this up but the information is on the other machine. It's the same text as the pointed but without the pointing. It would in theory also be possible to do the begedkefat substitutions above in a script and create something compatible with paleo fonts. I know it's not a Paleo Hebrew program but .... Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) I know it's not a Paleo Hebrew program but .... Hi Daniel, The farther back in time you went, the more you'd need the programming features I mentioned; that's why my dream is for a program. Here is an example from Gen 1:1-5 in Proto-Canaanitic, say 12th century BCE. (Btw, the exercise would be a useful one even for those who don't believe there are parts that old, just to teach early orthography). I did take out vowel letters and the final forms (and used the Unicode values for the unshifted initial and medial forms for convenience), and used הוה for היה . I also used a vertical stroke as a word divider. But here's where the programming would enter. Not all would agree with what I've done so far, so they'd like to change it. (It's even a work in progress for me. I would have to do a lot of research on early Hebrew orthography to tackle the parts of the Bible that some date conservatively.) To get a sense of what it might have actually looked like, the text may have been written boustrophedon - that is, first line right to left, followed by next line left to right, next right to left, etc. It would be very tedious for someone to have to do this manually. So, a program where one could select text and ask to reverse the order would be wonderful. Then we would need the ability to change the direction of single consonants, and rotate them. These programming abilities, besides the ones I mentioned above, would allow a scholar to test many combinations, which could lead to new discoveries. These abilities would also be needed for the history of the text under investigation. I did a paper on the history of one Bible verse as it would have appeared every century from the 12th century BCE to now. Of course there were some gaps, but what a learning experience it was re text transmission, the science of textual criticism, and much, much more. My point is, that we could program the history of the text, and scholars/readers could make as many individual versions as they like. I guess I'm hoping that some programmer at Acc would be intrigued by the sheer challenge of such a program, and would secretly start working on it for the pure joy of the programming challenge. Anyways, regards, Michel Edit: FWIW, JSesh is an open source program at http://jsesh.qenherkhopeshef.org/ that can do much of this for hieroglyphs. Edited November 7, 2015 by Michel Gilbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Hi Michel, I checked out the Unicode support for boustrophedon text. Alas the standard doesn't seem to support full paragraphs of boustrophedon text. Rather it expects that software will use hard line breaks and switch direction explicitly for each line. That said doesn't boustrophedon text also flip the letters ? If so that would be a bit problematic without glyphs for the reversed letters or a renderer that could reverse them. Certainly no small challenge to get it all working. Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 That said doesn't boustrophedon text also flip the letters ? Hi Daniel, Yes. Cross says, "During the pictographic stage there was little difficulty in giving letters their proper stance (the signs faced away from the direction of the writing). Stances could be changed according to the direction of writing without confusion" (Cross, Frank Moore. "Early Alphabetic Scripts," 104). While programming for boustrophedon and letter stance/rotation is important for the 12th century, it is even more so for the 11th. "Both the developing linear letter-forms and the persistence of multi-directional writing caused uncertainty in the stance of the letters. With the development of linear forms, the 'proper' stance could easily be forgotten. In fact, characteristic of the 11th century script is confusion of right-to-left and left-to-right stances " (Ibid.). He also says, "The 11th century is transitional in the styles of writing: (1) the script evolved from pictographic forms to linear forms in the course of the century, and (2) the direction of writing was standardized as the century passed. At the beginning of the century vertical, dextrograde, sinistrograde, and boustrophedon modes of writing were still in use. By century's end one direction of writing had become standard. All 10th-century inscriptions extant are inscribed from right to left" (Ibid, 101.) It is this type of Paleo-Hebrew program that I'm interested in - one that could manipulate 12th and 11th century reconstructions. If it could handle these texts/reconstructions, it could handle any of the subsequent ones. It would be quite the programming challenge (I haven't even mentioned vertical direction). Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I must look up that book. On cursive I was reading bits on Unicode a while back and ran across vertical cursive - a Mongolian script. If you need that sort of thing for your tool it is now getting seriously specialized, if it wasn't already. I was wondering the letter flipping couldn't be done by an alternative set of glyphs like bold and italic in a font. Hmmm.... That would make the coding a matter of styling the text at the right points. I am thinking too much about this Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 I must look up that book. Cross, Frank Moore. "Early Alphabetic Scripts." In Symposia Celebrating the Seventy-Fifth Anniversary of the Founding of the American Schools of Oriental Research (1900-1975), ed. Frank Moore Cross. Cambridge, MA: American Schools of Oriental Research, 1979. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Thank you. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted November 11, 2015 Author Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) Hi Daniel, In the meantime, MySword for Android has an unpointed Hebrew text (Aleppo), with a choice of nine Hebrew fonts - I chose Ezra SIL. You can compare it to other versions you download (using Compare or Parallel), e.g., to a pointed Hebrew text, LXX, etc. You can even read the SBLGNT and compare it to an unpointed Modern Hebrew translation (The Bible Society in Israel). Edit: I don't have an iPad, but check out e-Sword HD at https://itunes.apple.com/app/e-sword-hd/id567008119?mt=8 for the same features. Regards, Michel Edited November 11, 2015 by Michel Gilbert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Hi Michel, Agreed. I already use MySword on my Android phone. And yep I have both Tanakh+ and Aleppo and Ezra SIL. I need to upgrade to the deluxe version to get the compare. Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted November 13, 2015 Author Share Posted November 13, 2015 Hi Daniel, I found out how to install any .ttf in MySword at http://www.biblesupport.com/topic/2914-fonts-for-mysword-how-to/ : you copy a font into the MySword fonts folder and create a .css file for it. I just used an existing one and edited and save it with the new font name. Now I can read an unpointed text with a Paleo-Hebrew font. This is the only program I've found so far that can change fonts for unpointed Hebrew text. If I recall, you prefer Cardo. You can install it, and others. Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted November 13, 2015 Author Share Posted November 13, 2015 The proto-Hebrew text could be imported into Accordance as Bible Hi Timothy, I've searched the Help files for how to make a User Bible, and all I can find is how to make a User Tool. Is a User Bible just a User Tool? In any case, is it possible for a User Bible to scroll in parallel with another Bible, e.g., could I have the HB in Acc scroll with a User Paleo-Hebrew Bible? If so, how? Hi Daniel, You once wrote, "you can run a User Bible in parallel with an existing English, Greek, Hebrew bible" at http://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/16875-creating-your-own-greekenglish-module/?hl=%2Buser+%2Bbible&do=findComment&comment=81796 . Did it scroll automatically? And if so, how did you do it? Thanks, and regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabian Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Here for Importing Bibles Be sure you take by the importing a Bible (former User Bibles) which has the same versification. E.g. you have a HB which has the KJV versification then use the default KJV. But if the HB has the same versification like HMT then use that. Otherwise the scroll will not in sync. Yes it scrolls in sync, thats the normal behavior of Imported Bibles. Greetings Fabian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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