Question about discounted Gesenius' grammar

[iaccordance]

Hi,

 

before getting into buying the electronic version of Gesenius's grammar, I would like to know whether the following issue that was commented upon by the only comment on the page has been addressed :

 

 

Brian Wilson

November 8, 2011  |  3:24 PM  |  http://www.accordancebible.com/custom_content/store/images/graphics/rating_2.png

I purchased this module instead of buying the real book for my Hebrew class this semester. I was disappointed to find out that two indices (which may be the most valuable parts of the whole text) are missing in the electronic version. Unless the module is revised to include those indices (Index of Hebrew Words and Index of Passages), I would highly recommend purchasing the hard copy text.

 

If not, can we expect a free upgrade with these indices in a reasonable future ?

 

Thanks

[Ken Simpson]

Hi, I just had a look at the current module. I don’t think the indices are included. But I am also wondering why they are needed, when you can search for any hebrew word in the text and you can search for any scripture in the text.

[Gedalya]

What is the regular price?  $49.90 or $69.90    There seems to be a contradiction in the product details.

[Paul Meiklejohn]

It would be $49.90.  Accordance often lists the publishers retail price. But will always say in the sale blurb how much the regular discounted price in Accordance is so that we can see the actual saving at the time of sale.

[Gedalya]

If the regular discounted price is $49.90 then the discount to $39.90 is really 20%.

[Julie Palmer]

Paul is correct about the pricing. This product has a publisher's List price of $69.90, but we sell it for a Regular price of $49.90. When a product carries both a List price and a Regular price, the Sale price does display on the webpage with the discount from the List price. This is why, for these types of products, we always state in the disclaimer that the product regularly sells at a different price. So, yes, on this product the discount is 20% off the regular price.

[iaccordance]

This is actually quite misleading, because one's comparing apples with oranges.

F.ex. on the blog page concerning Kittel's TDNT, the comparison is clear : we're dealing with a discounted digital book showing Accordance's regular and discounted price :

 

 

Theological Dictionary of NT, Complete (Big Kittel--10 vols.)

Regular Price $249
Sale Price $149

 

But when I click on its details' page the comparison and its discounted percentage are actually comparing Accordance's digital version with the original paperback version, without very clearly stating so, giving the impression to the customer that he's making huge savings on the regular Accordance's digitals versions :

 

 

$700.00    On Sale: $149.00 (Save $551.00 or 78.71%)

PayPlan Available: Example $53.66 per month for 3 months

 

The more "transparent" comparison would be to display the percentage of the discount between Accordance's digital versions only, while the paperback publisher's price might also be displayed, but clearly stated as such...

Edited April 12, 2016 by iaccordance

[Michel Gilbert]

But I am also wondering why they are needed, when you can search for any hebrew word in the text and you can search for any scripture in the text.

 

Hi Ken,

 

Many that use GKC don't know Hebrew well enough to type in a Hebrew search, especially with vowels and accents. And, even if GKC in Acc is in Unicode, some combinations of vowels and accents would have been be entered in different orders. So, it would be a bit of a nightmare to try to search for Hebrew words without the Index. I don't think I need to send a screenshot. The Index of Hebrew Words and Forms has words with consonants only, and words with vowels and accents.

 

Even searching for a verse in English could be difficult. First, you would have to check/learn the GKC abbreviations for books.  But even knowing these, how could someone find, for example, Gen 1:11 or 18:9 when some actual references to them in GKC are in extended lists, e.g., Gn 1:6, 9, 11, &c., and Gn 16:5, 18:9, 19:33, 35, i.e., how could you find Gen 1:11 or 18:9  if you didn't have the intervening numbers memorized, or didn't know how to write algorithms?

 

The Indexes are included in BW and Logos, all hyperlinked, and are very useful to all users, from beginners to advanced scholars.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

 

[R. Mansfield]

Many that use GKC don't know Hebrew well enough to type in a Hebrew search, especially with vowels and accents. And, even if GKC in Acc is in Unicode, some combinations of vowels and accents would have been be entered in different orders. So, it would be a bit of a nightmare to try to search for Hebrew words without the Index. I don't think I need to send a screenshot. The Index of Hebrew Words and Forms has words with consonants only, and words with vowels and accents.

 

Even searching for a verse in English could be difficult. First, you would have to check/learn the GKC abbreviations for books.  But even knowing these, how could someone find, for example, Gen 1:11 or 18:9 when some actual references to them in GKC are in extended lists, e.g., Gn 1:6, 9, 11, &c., and Gn 16:5, 18:9, 19:33, 35, i.e., how could you find Gen 1:11 or 18:9  if you didn't have the intervening numbers memorized, or didn't know how to write algorithms?

 

 

Michael, I agree with you that it would be nice to have the indices in Gesenius. However, I thought I might comment on a couple of points you mention above. 

 

First, when searching for a Hebrew word in Accordance, you don't have to type the vowels and accents to find the word. Just type the consonants, and you should find what you need. 

 

Second, when searching for verse references in Accordance, you don't have to know a title's specific abbreviations for a book of the Bible. The system overrides this, and you can use standard abbreviations regardless of whether a title uses them or not or even another system of abbreviation. 

 

Also, if you run a search for Genesis 1:11, Accordance will also find the encompassing references such as Genesis 1-11. If you want to search for the specific reference only, use the exact form symbol (=), so the search would look like =Gen 1:11. 

[Michel Gilbert]

Hi Rick,

Since I don't own GKC in Acc, I wonder if you or someone else would you send me a screenshot of results for these searches, using the search features you mentioned (please include the Search box):

אֱלֹהִים , and Gen. 18:19 .

Then, I'll check and see if Acc got all of the examples from GKC.

If Acc gets all the examples, it would alleviate some of my concerns, but not all. Besides, Indexes are not only for words and verses. The Subject Index helps one to check the vocabulary the book is using for certain grammatical categories, especially important in older works. Without this, many students wouldn't even know what to search for at times.

Regards,

Michel
 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Michel Gilbert

[Ken Simpson]

Hmmm...I can’t get this to show anything, the colocation of the two just isn’t there for Gen 18:19.
 
So when I look at the text itself I only find 2 references to Gen 18:19, neither of which seem to have אֱלֹהִים in the same paragraph
 
4. Finally, the infinitive with לְ is very frequently used in a much looser connexion to state motives, attendant circumstances, or otherwise to define more exactly. In English, such infinitive constructions (like the Latin gerund in -do; cf. f) must frequently be turned by that or a gerund; e. g. 1 S 12:17 לִשְׁאֹל לָכֶם מֶלֶךְ in asking you a king; 14:33, 19:5, 20:36, Gn 3:22, 18:19, 34:7, 15, Ex 23:2, Lv 5:4, 22, 26, 8:15, Nu 14:36, 2 S 3:10, 1 K 2:3 f, 14:8, Jer 44:7 f, Ps 63:3, 78:18, 101:8, 103:20, 104:14 f., 111:6, Pr 2:8, 8:34, 18:5, Neh 13:18. Sometimes the infinitive with ‏לְ is used in this way simply by itself, e. g. 1 Ch 12:8 as the roes upon the mountains ‏לְמַהֵר (as regards hasting) in swiftness; Gn 2:3, 2 S 14:25 (‏לְהַלֵּל‎); Is 21:1 (‏לַֽחֲלוֹף‎); Jo 2:26, Pr 2:2, 26:2 and so very frequently the infinitive ‏לֵאמֹר dicendo which has become stereotyped as an adverb to introduce direct narration (in the sense of thus, as follows).10
 
Wilhelm Gesenius, Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar, ed. E. Kautzsch and A. E. Cowley; 2d, Accordance electronic ed. (Oxford: Clarenden Press, 1910), n.p.

 

 

and 

 

Rem. All the conjunctions here mentioned are naturally always used with the imperfect, see § 107 q (on the apparent exception in Jos 4:24, see § 74 g).—On the negative conjunctions אַל and פֶּן that not, lest, see § 152 f and w. On the infinitive with לְ3 (also לְמַ֫עַן Gn 18:19, 37:22, &c.) as the equivalent of a final clause (Gn 11:5, 28:4, &c.), see § 114 f, h, p. On the continuation of such infinitival constructions by means of the finite verb, see § 114 r. On the negation of the final infinitive by לְבִלְתִּי, § 114 s. On the preposition מִן with a substantive or infinitive as the equivalent of a negative final clause (Gn 31:29, 1 S 15:23, &c.), see § 119 x and y.

 

 

Wilhelm Gesenius, Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar, ed. E. Kautzsch and A. E. Cowley; 2d, Accordance electronic ed. (Oxford: Clarenden Press, 1910), n.p.

 

I don’t have a print edition to compare to, can you point to what we should be finding if this isn’t correct?

 

The search I conducted was this...

 

 

Comments Michel?

 

[Rick Bennett]

Hi All,

 

A few replies here:

 

In our current release the Index of Subjects is included, fully linked to relevant sections. The Index of Hebrew Words and Forms, and Index of Passages are not included.

 

 

This was most likely not an intentional removal of content, just simply that it was not included in the electronic text we received.

 

We can look into adding these into our edition, but I am not sure of the priority it will receive. The Index of Hebrew words will be particularly time consuming since each Hebrew word will have to be proofed.

 

Regarding Michel's questions:

 

See these shots from the print edition:

 

 

 

אֱלֹהִים occurs 50 times in the Grammar according to a search in the Hebrew Content field. The Index lists only 5 categories of occurrences with a general description, and accompanying section number. I will allow others to judge the merits of each.

 

Gen 18:19 occurs twice. The index also only lists two occurrences with their section numbers, and these match exactly to the results in Accordance.

 

I also noticed that our edition does not have page numbers. We can add them (although it is very common to cite GKC by the section number and those are of course present and searchable).

 

Thanks for the feedback.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Rick Bennett

[Michel Gilbert]

Comments Michel?

 

 

Hi everyone,

 

Well lol, I find myself digging myself out of holes this morning.

 

First, thanks for the gracious responses. I didn't know you could search the Hebrew with just consonants, or search with your own familiar abbreviations of biblical books. It is good to know. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

I thought that since the Hebrew word and Passage Indexes weren't included, the words and biblical references weren't tagged either. If they were, I would have thought that it would have been easy to generate those indexes. So I thought you had to enter an exact search. Anyways, it is what I've been doing for fifteen years with Unicode. It especially helps searching my own tens of thousands of note files, which one day will become a Grammatical Analysis of the OT/HB.

 

So, some of my concerns have been alleviated. Consonants are easier to enter than vowels and accents. And, the Subject Index is included.

 

However, I still think that the majority of users of GKC would find the index of Hebrew words easier to use than entering text. Besides, I chose my examples to show two things. First, entering your own searches could bring up only a few examples, e.g., Gen 18:19. These are easy to wade through. Second, other searches could bring up a large amount of examples, e.g., אלהים . It would be much more difficult for some to wade through the 50 examples of אלהים to find grammatical points specific to it, compared to where it is just part of a verse talking about about another word. The Hebrew index limits the places to look for grammatical points about אלהים .

 

Anyways, I'm just putting in my vote to support inclusion of the Indexes, and even hyperlinks between them if they list the same paragraph number.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

[Ken Simpson]

No problem Michel. We all want to understand people's questions and issues. I'm not in module development at all, so I can't comment on the indexes. Rick is the one to look to for that.

Thanks

[Rick Bennett]

As a heads-up, we're releasing an update to GKC which adds page numbers. We will also start working on adding the indices, but no word on when that will be done. As previously mentioned, the Hebrew index will be time-consuming and we have other projects going on as well.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

[Daniel R]

yay page numbers! I wish Amazon Kindle would do this too!