Any liturgy

[William B]

Hi this may be strange for a baptist to ask but is there any modules focused on liturgy? Or any that have quite a lot of it?

 

Thanks

[Fr. Rusty Matheny]

Hi this may be strange for a baptist to ask but is there any modules focused on liturgy? Or any that have quite a lot of it?

 

Thanks

 

Not Strange at all, and I too am asking them to incorporate the Book Of Common Prayer, The Lutheran Liturgy and Prayerbook, The Liturgies of Chrysostom,

The Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil the Great, Etc, Etc. ( Several different Additions- The prayer resource texts would be incredibly valuable, especially with the search abilities found in-Accordance)

 

I keep trying to make the point that one cannot truly do Biblical Studies without understanding the ways the church has prayed for 2000+ years.

We can study and diagram words until we finally find our Biblical studies sterilized, however, if we understand that Prayer was/is part of everything, part of the Bible being Canonized, then surely we need to include the prayer life of the church in our studies.

 

It was the great Liturgies of the past that settled more than one Heresy when people could do nothing but "proof text" each other over an issue with no one gaining ground over the other, as each group believed they had it correct, their interpretation correct.

 

But when they looked at: What have we always Prayed, what have we always said in the Divine Liturgy?

How does this issue line up with those things-then, the matter was soon settled in defining that which was true, from that which was false.

 

We need the resources today just as they did then, for we face the same type battles, on the same type grounds: Men/groups, dividing and saying their interpretation is correct, each "proof texting" each other to death, both claiming to love God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

As we pray, so we live.

 

So come on Accordance, be the best in this area as well, there are other companies who have every volume of Commentary by "whosit-whatsit, (and nobody is saying much of anything that has not already been said in those areas), plow a field they are not, bring us the Ancient things of Worship and Prayer,,,,, in Accordance.

 

 

I do think the Catholic Collection has some Liturgical Resources along with the Catechism.

 

Hope this Helps, and, Hint, Hint Accordance!

 

Rusty+

[Timothy Jenney]

Not Strange at all, and I too am asking them to incorporate the Book Of Common Prayer, The Lutheran Liturgy and Prayerbook, The Liturgies of Chrysostom,

The Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil the Great, Etc, Etc. ( Several different Additions- The prayer resource texts would be incredibly valuable, especially with the search abilities found in-Accordance)

 

I keep trying to make the point that one cannot truly do Biblical Studies without understanding the ways the church has prayed for 2000+ years.

We can study and diagram words until we finally find our Biblical studies sterilized, however, if we understand that Prayer was/is part of everything, part of the Bible being Canonized, then surely we need to include the prayer life of the church in our studies.

 

It was the great Liturgies of the past that settled more than one Heresy when people could do nothing but "proof text" each other over an issue with no one gaining ground over the other, as each group believed they had it correct, their interpretation correct.

 

But when they looked at: What have we always Prayed, what have we always said in the Divine Liturgy?

How does this issue line up with those things-then, the matter was soon settled in defining that which was true, from that which was false.

 

We need the resources today just as they did then, for we face the same type battles, on the same type grounds: Men/groups, dividing and saying their interpretation is correct, each "proof texting" each other to death, both claiming to love God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

As we pray, so we live.

 

So come on Accordance, be the best in this area as well, there are other companies who have every volume of Commentary by "whosit-whatsit, (and nobody is saying much of anything that has not already been said in those areas), plow a field they are not, bring us the Ancient things of Worship and Prayer,,,,, in Accordance.

 

 

I do think the Catholic Collection has some Liturgical Resources along with the Catechism.

 

Hope this Helps, and, Hint, Hint Accordance!

 

Rusty+

 

Interesting post, Rusty!

 

I have been challenged recently to reconsider my notion of biblical "context." We [evangelicals] tend to think of literary context (e.g. the context the the Shema (Deut. 6:4) is Deut. 5 and 7). However, the context to the ancient Israelites may well have been the other passages that were recited with the Shema (and they varied with the occasion). In other words, it is not just that Scripture needs to be reexamined in the light of Christian liturgical context, but Temple and synagogal as well. Early Christian liturgy, in fact, was an adaptation of these liturgies. [My own interest lies in the exegesis of the Fourth Gospel and Revelation, both of which have a great deal of liturgical background.]

 

So let us not just consider how to bring modern and Christian liturgies into Accordance, but ancient and Jewish as well!

[Fr. Rusty Matheny]

Interesting post, Rusty!

 

I have been challenged recently to reconsider my notion of biblical "context." We [evangelicals] tend to think of literary context (e.g. the context the the Shema (Deut. 6:4) is Deut. 5 and 7). However, the context to the ancient Israelites may well have been the other passages that were recited with the Shema (and they varied with the occasion). In other words, it is not just that Scripture needs to be reexamined in the light of Christian liturgical context, but Temple and synagogal as well. Early Christian liturgy, in fact, was an adaptation of these liturgies. [My own interest lies in the exegesis of the Fourth Gospel and Revelation, both of which have a great deal of liturgical background.]

 

So let us not just consider how to bring modern and Christian liturgies into Accordance, but ancient and Jewish as well!

 

 

Amen and Amen!

 

I am in complete agreement.( The wider the Context we can understand, the better we can interact with the content. )

 

To my current knowledge , no one in the Biblical Study Software realm has actually undertaken this task, oh, there are some resources available, but nothing like what could be done, ( as you say ), In Accordance.

 

Let me dream just a moment: Imagine all the "Particular" Ancient Texts, Prayers, Rites, Concerning Worship and Prayer ( as well as recent ) tagged and searchable, in both the Original Languages ( a must ) as well as Translated.

 

For the Biblical languages Scholars, a gold mine of information on how words and phrases were used in real time, again, an overall context issue, which certainly affects understanding the use of Greek and Hebrew within the life of God's people.

 

I believe this affects how we "see" things Theologically, thus, Exegesis, Ecclesiology, and perhaps, dare I say it, the areas of how we interact with Soteriology and understand Christology all get shaped by these things.

 

A person who has grown up and studied under the great Liturgies and Prayer Cycles that go with them, then comes to study ( and studies no less ) somewhat differently than those who have not studied under these influences, this certainly includes the studies done in Original Languages.

 

Agreed, all the Early Church's Worship came out of the Temple and Synagogue , and it worked for them, was adapted, and carried further as these things in the Temple were the Types/Shadows of what was to be in the Light of Christ.

We need to be able to work with these Texts as well as the Biblical Text, the Dead Sea Scrolls etc.

 

Accordance has the skill, they have the program.

 

To be able to use Accordance for this work instead of having to go to my Bookcases would be incredibly valuable.

 

Agreed on the fourth Gospel and The Revelation, the latter of which certainly "cycles" through a Liturgical pattern.

 

 

 

If I could finance this work, I would : it really needs to be done.

Many Scholars, in the future, will be very thankful for whoever creates this tagged Liturgical library that is searchable in the very ways that can be done with other texts, of course: In Accordance.

 

Blessings Dr. J

 

p.s. ( would love to see/hear what you are working on in those texts- interesting isn't it? )

 

Rusty+

[Michael J. Bolesta]

Accordance does have modules that cover liturgy. Here are a few:

 

The Catholic Collection has a small module, "Order of Mass" but I wonder if that is really what you are after. It gives the Latin of the modern Catholic Mass and the current English (by the way, a new English translation of the Latin is slated to be published and put into use late 2011). It is pretty sparse; it has only one of the four main Eucharistic prayers, none of the propers or readings. I am an ordained Catholic cleric (permanent deacon), and do not consult this module that often, but it would let you see the basic flow of modern Catholic Mass (one of our many liturgies; it does not include baptism, marriage, ordination, liturgy of the hours, confirmation to name a few).

 

The Catholic Collection also has Vatican II documents. One of the documents, Sacrosanctum Concilium is dedicated to the sacred liturgy and is the basis for the reform of the Mass (reflected in the modern Mass module above) and other liturgies. Another module, the Catechism of the Catholic Church has basic liturgical theology; the footnotes do refer extensively to scripture and patristic sources. Obviously Accordance could be used to explore the biblical basis of liturgical practice, but if you have patristic modules, you could explore some of the liturgical texts of the church fathers. The Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas gives a scholastic perspective. The Code of Canon Law touches on liturgy.

 

The Ante Nicene Fathers module (one of the Church Fathers modules) has a section entitled "Early Liturgies" that may interest you. The same module has a description of early Eucharistic liturgy by Justin Martyr. From a historical perspective, it may be the best module for you.

 

The Apostolic Fathers module has some material on early sacramental celebration (e.g., the Didache), but ANF has more material.

 

The Ancient Christian Commentary Series has patristic commentary on a good part of the Bible; there are references on sacraments (Eucharist, baptism) that also may interest you.

 

The Jewish Collection has Readings and Prayers for Jewish Worship. I do not have this and cannot comment further. It looks like it has the sabbath (Shabbat) readings as well as prayers.

 

The Catholic Collection does not have the lectionary, but the Catholic Study Bible does. The readings are an important part of liturgy. This is the current lectionary; as you know, many of the ancient NT manuscripts we have are parts of old lectionaries (scripture selections grouped for liturgy).

 

Shalom,

Michael