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Relationship of NA and GNT modules and upgrades


Λύχνις Δαν

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Hi All,

 

I'm not sure exactly where to address this question and perhaps it will help to have this clarified in the forum.

 

I have the GNT-T and every time I check for App updates I see a paid upgrade to the NA27-T. I have tended to ignore this upgrade because I also have the syntax module which is paired with GNT-T and I don't know whether that will break the syntax module if I upgrade. Notwithstanding that I also have the UBS with Apparatus and as yet text criticism has to be squeezed in between bookshelf construction and Greek :)

 

Now I see in the recent NA28 announcement email that a GNT28-T is available. I see that there is an upgrade to GNT28-T available from GNT-T yet this does not show up in me Check for Update even in Paid Upgrades. I don't know if that matters or not but it seems curious to me. Also there is a mention that the GNT28-T will sync with a forthcoming Syntax module.

 

All combined this prompts a number of questions some of which will probably be redundant when others are answered but here goes :

 

1. Are the Greek Syntax modules compatible with the NA27/28-T ?

2. Is the forthcoming syntax module compatible with GNT-T or is it specifically designed to work with GNT28-T ?

3. If the Syntax Modules are peculiar to a specific GNT*-T will the highly anticipated full NT syntax module be released for both variants ?

4. Finally, if one was to upgrade the GNT-T that I have to one of GNT28-T or NA28-T (given a positive answer to 2 above) will the current Syntax Module I have continue to work ?

 

Many thanx

D

 

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I don't know the answer to all of your questions, but the upgrade from GNT-T to NA28-T is supposed to include GNT28-T but that didn't install for me. If there are plans to make the syntax work with the new GNT module, it would be helpful to have this upgrade sorted out.

 

However, adding the NA28-T will not make the syntax stop working. It's just currently set up to work only with the GNT-T so you'll have to use that module for syntax searches and cross-highlighting with the syntax module.

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Hi Daniel,

I have the GNT28-T, the syntax modules do not (yet) work with it. There will be a release specific for that text at some stage. Upgrading will not stop the GNT syntax working with your GNT-T text

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1. Are the Greek Syntax modules compatible with the NA27/28-T ?

2. Is the forthcoming syntax module compatible with GNT-T or is it specifically designed to work with GNT28-T ?

3. If the Syntax Modules are peculiar to a specific GNT*-T will the highly anticipated full NT syntax module be released for both variants ?

4. Finally, if one was to upgrade the GNT-T that I have to one of GNT28-T or NA28-T (given a positive answer to 2 above) will the current Syntax Module I have continue to work ?

 

Daniel, sorry for the confusion. The Paid Upgrades and the Upgrade Calculator docs are now updated and should give current information.

 

The GNT.syntax works only with GNT-T, but we'll have a free upgrade to GNT28-T.syntax which will be compatible with the GNT28-T. I expect that we'll add the new books only to the GNT28-T.syntax as it will be extra work to maintain two databases.

 

The syntax modules do not work with the texts with sigla, as the sigla throw off the synchronization.

 

We will give the GNT28-T at no charge to users who own both the GNT-T and the NA28-T, whichever upgrade path they choose. If it isn't added to your account within a day or two, please request it.

 

I hope this helps to clear up the confusion.

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Helen,

I have GNT-T and the NT syntax database. When the NT database is complete will it be compatible with GNT-T or only GNT28-T. It sounds as if GNT28-T will be required t use the complete syntax database, but is not compatible now? So a purchase at some point of GNT28-T will be necessary to use the complete NT syntax database? Just wanting to confirm and determine the timing of all of this.

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Hi Helen, Ken,

 

Ok so I'm going to start sounding a bit dense in this post but you never learn if you don't ask :)

 

It sounds like upgrading to GNT28-T is not so much upgrading the GNT-T text as installing the 28 next to it. The same would appear to be true of the "upgrade" to NA28-T. Thus the existing GNT-T.syntax that I have will not break because the GNT-T itself will remain in place. Am I understanding this correctly ?

 

Like jfidel above I am considering how to stage this upgrade so that I do not end up with a non-functional syntax module, which I actively use. Ken's and Jonathan's posts suggest my understanding above but I just want to confirm that. If the above is true I presume the theory is that once one has upgraded one can either retain or delete the GNT-T/NA27 (though I actually don't have the NA27 - I have the UBS4 with App - which will be the source of more questions in a bit). Is that so ?

 

Thx

D

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Yes, I agree this can be a bit confusing. Just be glad you're not on this end, trying to juggle publishers' releases and their policies regarding them, collection updates, link updates, and syntactical database updates! I assure you that it gets a bit crazy around the office at times.

 

That said, here's what I propose to our users.

 

First, if you need the latest and greatest GNT available, with all the bells and whistles (updated text, apparatus, and cross-references), by all means purchase the NA28-T. Since it includes siglia in the text, it will not be able to support the GNT.syntax, but that was true of the NA27-T, too. Siglia and syntax look like they are going to remain incompatible for the foreseeable future. There won't be a single GNT that does it all.

 

Second, I suggest that you continue to use the GNT-T to access the syntactical database until we update the GN28T-T to support it. Once it does, I then recommend shifting to the GN28T-T, as it will have an updated syntax (which will reflect the latest text) and include the remainder of the NT syntactical database [though the latter may well still come in stages]. We'll notify everyone when we release this update. Meanwhile, don't worry about it.

 

Hope this helps!

Edited by Timothy Jenney
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Hi Daniel,

yes, Upgrading does not "break" anything and the 2 texts live happily (if at some future time somewhat redundantly) next to each other.

 

AS Dr J suggests, there is probably not a lot of point going to the GNT28 as your go to Greek just yet (if syntaxing is what you're after) you will break nothing by keeping with the GNT-T. The only thing will be the few minor variants in the redacted text in the catholic epistles.

 

Of course this also applies to those of us that use the UBS4, since that text will now vary with the NA27...in a way that it hasn't really for some time.

 

If as you say, you use the UBS4, then I wouldn't upgrade anything unless you really need the NA28. Don't go the GNT28 until the full syntax becomes available.

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Hi Ken, Tim,

 

Thanx. This all makes sense to me. In fact you confirmed the one thing I was going to hit on in my reply to Tim but I was then distracted by other things. The basic point is that the use of the word "upgrade" led me to believe that the GNT-T module would be in some way altered by the NA module. Not so and in fact they as both have their own copy of the GNT text. That's cool.

 

And yes the advice to wait for a GNT28-T compatible syntax seems the best approach. As to UBS versus NA I will leave that issue for another day.

 

Thx All.

D

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Hi Daniel,

the hub of the question I think re the GNT28 is what will you use as your apparatused text. If the UBS4, then stick with the GNT-T and syntax (who knows what the UBS5 will be like).

 

Otherwise your GNT text will be different to the text you need as your apparatus text.

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That's a good point. I don't do much apparatus work right now - well almost none - but its something to consider when I do.

And now you've done it - I'll have to go back and consider UBS versus NA again and work out why I chose the route I did :)

 

Good thing I have lots of spare time :)

 

Thx

D

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I think UBSGNT5 is supposed to be published later this year!

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What would be of utmost importance is the Editio Critica Maior (ECM) to accompany in a fully layered module. In addition, it would be fantastic to add an Accordance generated database that enables users to easily create distribution charts, locating each witness within its respective text association, date, and geographical locale.

Edited by J. T.
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What would be of utmost importance is the Editio Critica Maior (ECM) to accompany in a fully layered module. In addition, it would be fantastic to add an Accordance generated database that enables users to easily create distribution charts, locating each witness within its respective text association, date, and geographical locale.

 

I imagine we'll eventually get the ECM, especially when it is more complete.

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Just a reminder, everyone...

 

IMO the best GNT critical apparatus is not tied to a specific text edition, it is the CNTTS module: http://www.accordancebible.com/search/search.php?q=CNTTS. While it is probably overkill for some, I continue to be very impressed by its comprehensiveness and useability.

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Obviously, the term "best apparatus" is somewhat subjective, and everyone will have different opinions on the subject! ;)

 

To me, the CNTTS apparatus is excellent in many respects, especially if you're interested in issues such as spelling discrepancies between various manuscripts and the usage of nomina sacra (neither of which are treated significantly in the German Bible Society apparatuses). However, it has some drawbacks, such as the following: 1) versional and patristic evidence are treated very rarely, if at all, meaning that important aspects of New Testament textual criticism are not in view; 2) the Nestle-Aland editions and the Editio Critica Maior remain the standard editions used by the scholarly community, meaning that readers must use these ediitons in order to interpret the secondary literature; 3) the system of notation is different than those of other apparatuses, and requires an additional learning curve; 4) as Dr. J. mentioned, the sheer amount of information is likely overwhelming to a newcomer to textual criticism.

 

With these issues in mind, I would recommend the CNTTS apparatus to those intererested in specific aspects of textual criticism that it is best suited to address (e.g., those mentioned above) or as an additional tool that can provide more information on specific verses or passages. If I had to purchase a single apparatus, it wouldn't be my first choice. In my own workflow, I I usually begin with NA-27 and NA-28. If I want more detail, I move to UBS and Metzger's Textual Commentary (which usually include more information than NA-27 and NA-28 in the variants that they cover), and then to CNTTS and Tischendorf (which, as Julie and I have discovered through some of her recent questions, still has a lot of value).

 

For Daniel, I would add that while many people view the NA and UBS apparatuses as an "either/or," I've always viewed them more as a "both/and." I think that they work best when used together.

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That was an error, sorry.

Edited by Yohanan
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I think UBSGNT5 is supposed to be published later this year!

 

Jonathan - Where did you hear/read that? It would be welcome! I did a web search and couldn't find anything.

 

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I could have sworn I posted a thanx to Tim and Matthew on the text crit. but apparently I blanked on hitting post. Done that sort of thing a couple of times this week. Oops. Anyhow thanx.

 

And I've now returned to getting my feet wet in text crit. with Parker's introductory text. Very interesting. His second chapter has got me wondering about computer based collation software. I presume such, or its kin, exists but haven't checked yet. And the apparatus stuff starts to look like multiple collations. Hmmm.....

 

As to UBS5 I could only find indications it was underway not when it would be published.

 

Thx
D

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Daniel,

 

I've not read "Parker," but the computer plays varying degrees in Text Critical Research. I doubt you will find any public software that does such a thing, as most who use algorithms develop their applications for their own purposes (e.g., Menachem Cohen at Bar-Ilan, etc.)

 

Even within LXX research, the computer is being efficaciously used to discern recension relationships (e.g., see Hiebert and Dykstra HERE).

 

I too have developed several algorithms for versional analysis. My specific work expands upon what CATSS has already done, but focuses more on translation technique questions and text critical questions. I don't plan to make this application public at this time.

Edited by J. T.
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Hi JT,

 

I was just looking over this and in fact Parker (An Introduction to the NEw Testament Manuscripts and Their Texts, for reference) and he mentions Collate. Collate is now in a second incarnation it seems but it was used on the NA28 apparently. It can handle a bunch of variant texts. There appear to be others like Quasillum's Perl script or Juxta Software's product. Accordance has something to compare texts which while not a collation is in principle not that far.

 

I hadn't actually been thinking of auto diff tools for this but was more wondering about data entry tools for manually constructed collations. That of course would be possible even using something as simple as a word processor macro.

 

Not being adequately familiar with the processes of text crit. I expect that there are many more specialized operations where more custom software is helpful., such as your own.

 

Thx

D

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At a foundational level, all eclectic texts and apparatuses are based on collations, which record the ways in which the various manuscripts of a work differ from one another. I suspect that collation software such as Collate and Juxta (which was developed here at UVA) hasn't been widely accessible because it's usually used by the editors who prepare editions of texts, rather than the readers of those texts. However, as public interest in textual criticism has deepened, so has the availability and use of these tools (Juxta is freely available online). Simular results may be achieved using Accordance; when you "compare texts," you're essentially asking Accordance to collate the selected witnesses against one another. The results aren't perfect, but it's much simpler than manually tagging and processing witnesses!

 

Parker's introduction is very good, but it's a bit idiosyncratic at times, and can also be a bit advanced (depending on one's previous knowledge of textual criticism). When I'm working with undergrads, I use portions of it as a supplement alongside Robert Hull's The Story of the New Testament Text.

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Daniel,

 

For entry, I use XML. It gives the necessary complexity needed, while a script can easily return back the data of my queries. As of now, I return back my data in report file. I don't necessarily need a GUI to see the results of my data. Collation is only one step and one aspect of the data, and as Textual Critical research (of the Hebrew Bible and LXX) moves into addressing issues of literary criticism and editions, collation isn't sufficient as variants exist in language, a language which is contingent upon the competence of Scribe or Tradent.

Edited by J. T.
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Jonathan - Where did you hear/read that? It would be welcome! I did a web search and couldn't find anything.

 

Hi Julie,

 

Check this post on the Evangelical Textual Criticism blog. Also, a publication of L. M. McDonald (Formation of the Bible: The Story of the Church's Canon) also indicated 2013 as the expected publication date of UBS5. So, who knows? We know it is in the works at least!

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Thanks, Jonathan. Looks like it may be out this year.

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