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#1 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:45 PM

Hi ya,

 

  Another spin off of the 3rd class conditionals thread.

 

  If I use the following search : =ἐάν_1@ [tag conjunction conditional] I get this analysis output if I include inflected form and tag data :

 

Total number of verses = 261
  (total number of verses displayed = 261)

=ἐάν_1@ [tag conjunction conditional] (285 total words)

        ἐάν_1    (εἰ, ἄν_1)    if = 285
                    ἐάν = 44
                                Conjunction subordinating (conditional) = 44
                    ἐὰν = 215
                                Conjunction subordinating (conditional) = 215
                    Ἐάν = 1
                                Conjunction subordinating (conditional) = 1
                    Ἐὰν = 10
                                Conjunction subordinating (conditional) = 10
                    χρασισ = 15
                                Conjunction subordinating (conditional) = 15

 

  Note the last entry : χρασισ is not a word which appears in the GNT28-T. I cannot search for it. I'm pretty sure it represents the crasis forms of εαν-1, as in  και εαν  rendered καν in Mark 5:28.

 

  If I'm correct the reporting in the analysis could use some improvement. I'm not 100% sure what to suggest - er - well how about listing each crasis form and its counts ? Of course if I'm wrong could someone explain what I'm seeing ?

 

Thx

D
 


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#2 Joel Brown

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:06 PM

From the Help (You are here: Biblical Research and Analyses > Work with Grammatically Tagged Text > Work with Greek Tagged Text > Entering Greek Lexical, Inflected, and Root Forms):

 

Search for Crasis
You can search for examples of crasis where two words are combined into one such as καγω (και + εγω) (and I). The crasis tag is attached to the second word of the combination and can be found by searching for its transliteration in quotation marks: "χρασις".

To find examples of crasis beginning with και search for και "χρασις".
To find examples ending with εγω search for εγω@"χρασις". Both of these searches will find καγω, as will a search for "καγω".

 

 

Hopefully that makes sense!  I'd expand on it more, but I'm no Greek expert (or amateur).  I will say you can do some interesting things.  Try selecting the crasis form in the Analysis and doing Amplify -> Search Current Resource.  This will do an 'Analysis Amplify' that will show you those specific terms.  Note, it uses your selection and what's above it, so you need to select "conditional" to eliminate the explanatory use of the crasis ean.

 

Or, you could try eliminating the other terms with a search like:  =εαν_1@[CONJUNCTION conditional] @-"εαν"


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#3 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:29 PM

Hey Joel thanx for this. I try to be good and use the doc. and then .... oh well ooops.

 

The Amplify thing is really cool. I notice it amplifies to a new WS.

 

Its a good thing crasis transliterated isn't a real word.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

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lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

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#4 Ken Simpson

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 01:33 AM

Hi Daniel, without trying to be too pedantic, oh wait, yes I am. :P
 
χρασις Is a real Greek word, as can be seen from the Perseus entry below. It's just not in our current koiné corpus. If we include more classical sources in the future that will have to be taken into account.
 
κρᾶσις εως, ἡ (Ion. κρῆσις Hp.Vict.1.32): (κεράννυμι):—
A.mixing, blending of things which form a compound, as wine and water, opp. mechanical mixture (defined as anεἶδος μίξεως in which the constituents are liquids, Arist.Top.122b26, cf. Stoic.2.153; περὶ κράσεως, title of work byAlex.Aphr.): first in A., “τὴν δευτέραν γε κ. ἥρωσιν νέμω” Fr.55, cf. Staphyl.9, Ath.10.426b (pl.); κράσεις ἠπίωνἀκεσμάτων modes of compounding . . , A. Pr.482; “ἡ τῶν ἐναντίων κ.” Pl. Lg.889c; “τὴν τῶν νεύρων φύσιν ἐξὀστοῦ καὶ σαρκὸς κράσεως . . συνεκεράσατο” Id.Ti.74d; “ἐκ κράσεως πρὸς ἄλληλα” Id.Tht.152d; “τὴν ἁρμονίαν κ.καὶ σύνθεσιν ἐναντίων εἶναι” Arist. de An.407b31; “χρωμάτων ἀκριβὴς κ.” Luc.Zeux.5, cf. Arist.Col.792a4.
 
etc etc
 
The link to the rest of the entry is here

Edited by Ken Simpson, 07 August 2013 - 02:00 AM.


#5 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:14 AM

Hi Ken,

 

But not with the χρασις spelling but with a kappa I see. I didn't check for variant spellings or check the origin of crasis. Good to know. In the way its transliterated it avoids the clash with a real spelling so you should be good for the future also though it might get too close for comfort I agree. I think I'd not have done it this way and  left it in English, but it works it seems.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

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lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

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#6 Ken Simpson

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 04:52 PM

True. you know, I was sure there was a greek word χρασις, but I can't find it now. The k completely missed my gaze on my iphone..


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#7 Ken Simpson

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:44 PM

You know, on closer reading of LSJ, it even has a section for the grammatical term under κρᾶσις not  χρασις. Looks like the problem is completely moot. My sincerest embarrassment.

 

Look before you leap Ken...

 

 

5 Gramm., crasis, i.e. the combination of the vowels of two syllables into one long vowel or diphthong, e.g. τοὕνομα for τὸ ὅνομα, ἁνήρ for ὁ ἀνήρ, τἆρα for τοι ἄρα, A.D.Adv.128.2, EM822.56, etc.; also, synaeresis of vowels, e.g. εὗ for ἐΰ, ib.392.54; but opp. ἔκθλιψις and συναίρεσις, An.Ox.1.371.

 

“κρᾶσις κρῆσις,” LSJ, 990.


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#8 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:42 PM

I must say I hate it when that happens too Ken but no harm done as they say.

 

Anyhow I still think it would nice to have the crasis busted out in the analysis rather than simply being bundled under this title.

Its probably my level of Greek but I'd find it help to see the prepositions (etc.) included in the crasis analysis rather than just the major second word form as below :

 

Total number of verses = 136
  (total number of verses displayed = 136)

*@"=χρασισ" (143 total words)

Number of different forms = 7:

        ἐάν_1    (εἰ, ἄν_1)    if = 16
        ἐγώ    I (sg.); we (pl.) = 82
        ἐκεῖ    there = 10
        ἐκεῖθεν    (ἐκεῖ, θεν)    from there = 10
        ἐκεῖνος    (ἐκεῖ)    that, that one, he = 22
        ἐναντίον    (ἐν, ἀντί)    (+gen) before = 2
        ὄνομα    name = 1
 

  But once I get on a bit I suspect I'll be more familiar and I can at least find them when needed.

 

  I'll note that ID for crasis words seem to give the definition of the first (prep., art, etc) rather than the meaning of the combine term.

  For example τοὐναντίον has this ID :

 

τοὐναντίον ὁ   Article neut sing nom  the, who, which

[ESVS] G3588  contrary

 

  this is mildly confusing and were it not for the key numbered gloss a beginner might be confused. In fact given it one might be confused for the contradiction.

  In fact it might be nice if ID indicated that this was a crasis and what the components were.

 

  Anyhow enough whining from me. Off to study vocab.

 

Thx

D


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#9 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:00 AM

I have not done the tagging of the morphology myself, but I have discussed this issue with Rex Koivisto a few years ago. The word crasis is understood as an English word, not as the Greek word κρᾶσις. Why then does it appear in Greek characters? Simply because it appears in the "inflected form" field, that is usually taken by a Greek inflected word.

 

This is also why you can find a crasis only by surrounding it with commas, as in 'crasis' or "crasis".


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#10 Roman Mazur

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:09 AM

Hi,

 

I have question connected to 'crasis'.

I was preparing a small exercise about 'crasis' in LXX (Rahlfs).

During the research I found something like that - just an example:

 

ἄν = 619

ἄν = 19

Particle = 19

ἂν = 599

Particle = 599

crasis = 1

Particle = 1 (?)

 

or

 

Κἂν = 3

Adverb = 2 (4Mac 10,18; Sir 16,11)

Conjunction coordinating = 1 (4Mac 2,9)

κἂν = 13

Adverb = 4 (Wis 14,4; Wis 15,12; Sir 3,13; Sir 14,7)

Conjunction coordinating = 9 (Lev 7,16; 4Mac 2,8; 4Mac 2,9; Wis 4,4; Wis 9,6; Sir 9,13; Sir 13,23; Sir 23,11; Sir 33,29)

crasis = 1

κἂν Adverb = 1 (?)

 

 

The question marks are mine and are my question. How could I identify the entries which I marked with question mark?
Thanks for your (sure) patience and (possible) answer.
 
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#11 Helen Brown

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 07:05 AM

If you display the word under the tag, and then select the word and search in the text, it will search for the word with all its sort criteria. However, I am not able to reproduce your list showing the Crasis tag, to confirm how to do this.


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#12 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:45 AM

Does *@[particle] @"=χρασισ" get you what you need ?

 

Μακκαβ. Δ 8·10 κατελεήσατε οὖν ἑαυτούς, οὓς καὶ ὁ πολέμιος ἔγωγε καὶ τῆς ἡλικίας καὶ τῆς εὐμορφίας οἰκτίρομαι.
Μακκαβ. Δ 16·6 Ὦ μελέα ἔγωγε καὶ πολλάκις τρισαθλία, ἥτις ἑπτὰ παῖδας τεκοῦσα οὐδενὸς μήτηρ γεγένημαι.
Ἰώβ 29·22     ἐπὶ δὲ τῷ ἐμῷ ῥήματι οὐ προσέθεντο, περιχαρεῖς δὲ ἐγίνοντο, ὁπόταν αὐτοῖς ἐλάλουν·
 

I think Job is the one for the first entry you have above. The particle will have to be changed to adverb or something similar. But like Helen I am not exactly sure how you got the first list and that would help in confirming how to get the exact detail you want.

 

Thx

D


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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

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#13 Roman Mazur

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 08:29 AM

Helen, Daniel - 

 

Thanks for yours answers! I appreciate the help.

Daniel's answer gave me a help and - in fact - it was Job 29,22 I was looking for in the first example and Esth 11,10 [1:1i] in the second.

 

Now I will explain, how I get my results (it was just an example).

First I prepared a full LXX analysis and (2) then I have chosen  "χρασισ", (3) prepared in different window a concordance and (4) associate the results to the previous research. It is bit longer way but useful. Doing so, I found myself in difficulty how to associate what was meant 'crasis' (I changed it from greek characters into latin).

 

But a paradigm offered by Daniel solved my question.

 

Thanks to both of you!

 

Greetings

 

Roman



#14 Roman Mazur

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Posted 16 July 2016 - 01:59 AM

Helen, Daniel

 

when looking for adverbs, I found this strange (for me) result:

 

("=καὶ")@ [Adverb] (779 total words)

 

Number of different forms = 2:

 

καί and, also, even, and yet, but = 779

καὶ = 779

Adverb = 778

Adverb (variant)

Conjunction coordinating (copulative) (variant) = 1

 

 

There are no hits for Adverb (variant) - and I don't know what does it mean 'variant' in this case.

I was trying to perform tag search with (variant) - no results.

Then: Conjunction coordinating (copulative) (variant) = 1 - I do not know how it is possible to individualise it or search it?

 

Probably it is simple (as it was in the past), but I will appreciate any help.

 

Regards and greetings

 

Roman



#15 Helen Brown

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Posted 16 July 2016 - 06:10 AM

Sadly there is no way to search for variants, nor for words that have both adverb and conjunction in their tags. However, by narrowing the RANGE command and watching the Analysis, it took just seconds to find the culprit:

 

Luke 3:18
Πολλὰ    πολύς    Adjective neuter plural accusative    Complement    much, many; (adv) more
μὲν    μέν    Particle (alternating)        indeed, on the one hand
οὖν    οὖν    Conjunction coordinating (inferential)        therefore, thus
καὶ    καί    Adverb    Complement    and, also, even, and yet, but
       -           καί    Conjunction coordinating (copulative)    Complement    and, also, even, and yet, but
ἕτερα    ἕτερος    Adjective neuter plural accusative (demonstrative)    Complement    other, another
παρακαλῶν    παρακαλέω (παρά, καλέω)    Verb present active participle masculine singular nominative    Predicate    to urge, exhort, comfort
 


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#16 Roman Mazur

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Posted 16 July 2016 - 06:43 AM

Helen,

 

thank you.

As always - clear and helpful.

 

- greetings

 

Roman






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