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#1 Matt Fredenburg

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:46 PM

Hi,

  in the following screenshot, I have four texts open. On three of them, 'over' is highlighted, but in one, 'authority' is. How would I come to understand why it is this way (as opposed to all of them having 'over' highlighted)?

Attached File  Not a bug - Authority vs Over Highlighting.png   461.31KB   0 downloads

 

 

Thanks,

 

Matt


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#2 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:57 PM

Hi Matt,

 

  Pretty sure this will be a tagging issue, that is which word was tagged with G0831. I had a 4 way parallel with NAS95S as well as KJVS and ESVS. ESVS and KJVS tag over. NAS95S tags both authority and over as G0831. NET doesn't tag and so there is no highlighting.

 

  By rolling over the word in each text you'll see the tagging in ID.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i5 Ivy Bridge
      12GB RAM                                8GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 11.1.6 and 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Professional x64


#3 Matt Fredenburg

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 12:15 AM

Hi Matt,

 

  Pretty sure this will be a tagging issue, that is which word was tagged with G0831. I had a 4 way parallel with NAS95S as well as KJVS and ESVS. ESVS and KJVS tag over. NAS95S tags both authority and over as G0831. NET doesn't tag and so there is no highlighting.

 

  By rolling over the word in each text you'll see the tagging in ID.

 

Thx

D

Hi Daniel. When you say 'tagging issue' are you stating that it's a problem? Or are you saying that in the screenshot I supplied that somebody (Accordance staff, the publishers?) decided to tag 'authority' instead of 'over' and that it really doesn't matter, or is it something else?

 

Thanks!

 

Matt


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#4 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 12:42 AM

Sorry for being obtuse. Its not really a problem as much as something to be aware of. When translating from Greek (quite frankly it could be demonstrated between any pair of languages I suspect - even C and Java) a single Greek word is often rendered using multiple English words. When someone (a tagger :)) then goes through and tags the text they will make a decision concerning how the tagging should be applied to the text. Some words will be tagged very simply because there is a one English word for one Greek word correspondence. Other times where will be words that had to be added but really aren't present as a distinct word in the Greek. They may be left untagged or they may be tagged with the same tag again as the NAS95S does. Why an individual (or committee of) tagger(s) decides to do one or the other I don't really know. There is in fact another alternative: you can tag the English phrase as representing the Greek word. This is apparently what is done in the Mounce NT. I don't have it so I cannot comment on it but it seems to have some benefits - there is a podcast on this - look for Enhanced Tagging or something similar in the podcasts - I posted a link the other day on another thread but its easy to find.

 

There is one final case it seems to me that a single English word can cover the meaning of more than one Greek word. I don't know if such cases in practice exist and if they do how they are handled.

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i5 Ivy Bridge
      12GB RAM                                8GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 11.1.6 and 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Professional x64


#5 Matt Fredenburg

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 02:08 AM

Sorry for being obtuse. Its not really a problem as much as something to be aware of. When translating from Greek (quite frankly it could be demonstrated between any pair of languages I suspect - even C and Java) a single Greek word is often rendered using multiple English words. When someone (a tagger :)) then goes through and tags the text they will make a decision concerning how the tagging should be applied to the text. Some words will be tagged very simply because there is a one English word for one Greek word correspondence. Other times where will be words that had to be added but really aren't present as a distinct word in the Greek. They may be left untagged or they may be tagged with the same tag again as the NAS95S does. Why an individual (or committee of) tagger(s) decides to do one or the other I don't really know. There is in fact another alternative: you can tag the English phrase as representing the Greek word. This is apparently what is done in the Mounce NT. I don't have it so I cannot comment on it but it seems to have some benefits - there is a podcast on this - look for Enhanced Tagging or something similar in the podcasts - I posted a link the other day on another thread but its easy to find.

 

There is one final case it seems to me that a single English word can cover the meaning of more than one Greek word. I don't know if such cases in practice exist and if they do how they are handled.

 

Thx

D

Thanks Daniel for your time and effort!

 

Matt


Specs:

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  • i7-6800K @ 3.40 GHz
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#6 Douglas Fyfe

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:04 PM

just out of interest I looked up ου μη and at least with NA28-T and ESVS in parallel, they don't highlight one another.

Even though 'never/not' is tagged as G3364 ου μη!

 

Anyway - tagging must be a thankless task - and it works pretty well in 99.9% of cases.


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#7 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:42 PM

Nice Douglas. I should have guessed this example. I wonder if/how the Mounce NT handles this case. Anyone know ?

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i5 Ivy Bridge
      12GB RAM                                8GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 11.1.6 and 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Professional x64


#8 Steve King

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 08:22 AM

I haven't been through every instance but generally it seems that Mounce tags not/never with two key numbers, one for each word (G4024 and G3590). Matt 5:18 seems only to have one tag whereas NA27-T has both Greek words.

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#9 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 09:18 AM

Thanx Steve - its using GK numbers not Strong's I'm guessing. Is that so ?

 

thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i5 Ivy Bridge
      12GB RAM                                8GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 11.1.6 and 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Professional x64


#10 Rick Bennett

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 10:50 AM

just out of interest I looked up ου μη and at least with NA28-T and ESVS in parallel, they don't highlight one another.

Even though 'never/not' is tagged as G3364 ου μη!

 

Anyway - tagging must be a thankless task - and it works pretty well in 99.9% of cases.

 

This inconsistency is due to inheriting the Strong's system, which in many cases created distinct entries for common phrases. Accordance is trying to map that Strong's number to a specific lexical form in the GNT, and doesn't find it.

 

So, we've got two options: program Accordance to lookup one or both of the words (likely just the first), or re-tag this as two Strong's numbers for each word. The latter is the method that I would lean towards since it does not require additional programming support and is actually more accurate in terms of producing search results, etc. 

 

I'll make a note for this to be edited.

 

Thanks for the feedback.


Edited by Rick Bennett, 12 November 2013 - 10:50 AM.

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#11 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:22 AM

Thanx for the explanation Rick. I'd more or less come to the conclusion that Strong's must be doing that in some cases but had not yet checked it out. That makes this a (slightly) distinct case from the N Greek words translated into one English one as Strong has essentially treated these common expressions as just one word.

Out of curiosity - does GK adhere strictly to one distinct word (ie. morphological variants due to case, number, mood etc all use the same number) one key number ?

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i5 Ivy Bridge
      12GB RAM                                8GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 11.1.6 and 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Professional x64


#12 Rick Bennett

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:29 AM

Thanx for the explanation Rick. I'd more or less come to the conclusion that Strong's must be doing that in some cases but had not yet checked it out. That makes this a (slightly) distinct case from the N Greek words translated into one English one as Strong has essentially treated these common expressions as just one word.

Out of curiosity - does GK adhere strictly to one distinct word (ie. morphological variants due to case, number, mood etc all use the same number) one key number ?

 

Thx

D

 

I'm pretty sure, but I'd have to look into it more to say conclusively.


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#13 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:45 AM

Thanx, no need to chase it. I can look it up if I need it. Thx Rick.


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua

ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν

lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

 

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

 

Accordance Configurations :
 
Mac : 2009 27" iMac                 Windows : HP 4540s laptop
      Intel Core Duo                          Intel i5 Ivy Bridge
      12GB RAM                                8GB RAM
      Accordance 11.2.4 and 12                Accordance 11.1.6 and 12
      OSX 10.11 (Yosemite)                    Win 10 Professional x64





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