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#21 Enoch

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:03 PM

"The man who through faith is just and upright shall live by faith shall live and shall live by faith."

 

Vot der Dumboozle!  I can't believe that.  (No pun intended.)

 

Here is what my Amp amplifies:  " The man who through faith is just and upright shall live and shall live by faith."

 

Mine has only 2 "shall lives."  

 

I don't see any attempt to do an English synonym study here.  Both just and upright are in BDAG for δίκαιος.  I see a translation that I don't like at first (but which IMHO is possible): "through faith is just."    Then it looks like the translator is trying to have it both ways (which I don't think is possible).  Is it that one who is just lives by faith, or that one who is just by faith lives?  

 

Then punctuation is required with repetition of the subject pronoun:  The man who through faith is just and upright, shall live; and he shall live by faith."

 

I have seen the criticism that the Amp tries to have it both ways when that is impossible in a given passage.  But I have not yet seen any proof that the Amp errs by doing an English thesaurus on a Greek word (instead of listing a string of possible Greek meanings).


Edited by Enoch, 28 March 2014 - 11:44 AM.

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#22 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:25 PM

Oops. you are correct. Enoch. I incorrectly added another "shall live."

 

However, my point was not with regard to "just." "Upright" is a perfectly fine alternate translation for it.

 

My concern was with the rendering of "pistis." There's no evidence that the translator was aware of its other meaning: "faithfulness" or "trustworthiness."


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#23 Gordon

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 04:29 PM

Any book to which Prof Marc Brettler of Brandeis University has his name attached  is guaranteed to be of the highest caliber and superior scholarship.  Both volumes of excellent.


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#24 Enoch

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 11:53 AM

Well, Tim; perhaps she didn't want to overthrown the entire Reformation with a translation!  IMHO, this translator appears to go out of the way to emphasize standard Evangelical theology.  Now had she written, "The man who through faithfulness is just," she would have added a justification-by-works interpretation, contrary to the Pauline theology.

 

Gorab1:

 

Are you saying that the Amp was puffed by Marc Brettler?  Is Brandeis U a hotbed of fundamentalism from which the Lockman Foundation would want a blessing?

 

"Both volumes"?  To what two volumes do you refer?



#25 Helen Brown

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 02:41 PM

Enoch, you have strayed from our guidelines by referring negatively to the differing views discussed in this topic. Of course each translation is an interpretation to some extents, and reflects the views of the translators/editors/publishers. On our forums all views are welcome. Please do not disparage either the posters on the forum, nor the authors and editors of the works we offer. You can state a disagreement, but respectfully and cordially, please!

 

The two volumes that Brettler edited are the The Jewish Study Bible and The Annotated Jewish New Testament. He is a most respected and distinguished scholar and a long-time supporter of Accordance. Brandeis is a Jewish University of high-standing and scholarship, and we greatly appreciate his and their contributions to Biblical scholarship.

 

Yes, the Amplified Bible and the NASB (Lockman) were published by evangelical scholars, and as I said, each work reflects certain views, but that does not make them less valuable. On the contrary, the ability to consult works from different perspectives can only deepen our understanding of the text.

 

Again, issues of doctrine are beyond the scope of this forum, and we request that everyone honor the guidelines.


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#26 Gordon

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 09:49 AM

Gold,

I am referring to the Jewish Study Bible and to the Annotated Jewish New Testament (as Helen has pointed out).  Brettler has nothing to do with the Amplified.

Brandeis U has nothing to do with any fundamentalist movement,neither Christian nor Jewish.  It is a university with a wonderful Judaic department whose scholars are second to none.


‏ כִּ֤י לֶ֣קַח ט֭וֹב נָתַ֣תִּי לָכֶ֑ם תּֽ֝וֹרָתִ֗י אַֽל־תַּעֲזֹֽבוּ׃


#27 Obed Benyah

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 11:13 AM

Gorab1:

 

Thank you for your input on The Jewish Study Bible and the Annotated New Testament. I did manage to find some on-line interior pages for both and was able to get a flavor of what they are - and what they are not. What I really desire is a version of the text itself that reflects the Hebraic understandings of the words. Both of these works seem to lean toward a more modernistic approach to the translations, not toward the older perspectives.

 

I owe Helen Brown a deep note of thanks in this regard also, for reminding me of The Schocken Bible by Dr. Everett Fox. I had set it aside and hadn't looked at it for a while. My renewed acquaintance with it is proving MOST valuable. He has done very much what I desire to see in a text. He manages to portray in English much of the character of the Hebrew language. His notes are most valuable. And his concept of breaking the text into "breathing parts" is profound in its impact, especially when read out loud as he recommends. My only disappointment is in the lengthy time involved in completing the entire Scriptures in this manner.

 

Appreciating your kindness,

Obed


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He has explained to you, oh man, what is good, and what YAHWEH requires of you: 

- Do justice, 

- Love mercy, and 

- Walk humbly with your Elohim.

                                                  Micah 6.8


#28 Daniel Francis

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 01:04 PM

The JPS version and the complete Jewish Bibles are likely going to be your best bets, aside from the two torah versions mentioned (at least I think the modern Jewish commentary was mentioned).

 

-Dan



#29 Enoch

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:14 PM

OakTree Software, Inc.

 

Enoch, you have strayed from our guidelines by referring negatively to the differing views discussed in this topic. Of course each translation is an interpretation to some extents, and reflects the views of the translators/editors/publishers. On our forums all views are welcome. Please do not disparage either the posters on the forum, nor the authors and editors of the works we offer. You can state a disagreement, but respectfully and cordially, please!

 

The two volumes that Brettler edited are the The Jewish Study Bible and The Annotated Jewish New Testament. He is a most respected and distinguished scholar and a long-time supporter of Accordance. Brandeis is a Jewish University of high-standing and scholarship, and we greatly appreciate his and their contributions to Biblical scholarship.

 

Yes, the Amplified Bible and the NASB (Lockman) were published by evangelical scholars, and as I said, each work reflects certain views, but that does not make them less valuable. On the contrary, the ability to consult works from different perspectives can only deepen our understanding of the text.

 

Again, issues of doctrine are beyond the scope of this forum, and we request that everyone honor the guidelines.

Well Helen, I see that I am going to have to be a lot more careful about what I post here.   But thanks for telling me that "On our forums all views are welcome," which means that my views are welcome.

 

However, I don't believe I disparaged a poster, but I did question the disparagement of the Amplified Bible by someone else. When I read a post that seemed to indicate that a Brandeis professor had praised a Lockman Foundation product (like the Amp), I thought that was strange and should be addressed.  This whole thread concerns obtaining the best translation of the Bible, an issue which cannot really be addressed honestly without doctrinal issues being raised.  If one buys the Amplified, it is objective fact to note that it is evangelical.  And how are you going to allow a thread like this and forbid anything negative to be said about a product you sell (a particular translation)?  And BTW, this thread began with a general disparagement of translations.

 

But as I say, I see I will have to be much more careful what I post here; apparently I was under the wrong impression as to the nature of OakTree Software, Inc. (thinking it was a Christian company).  I did not realize that any of my posts above would step on your toes, which certainly was not my purpose.


Edited by Enoch, 05 April 2014 - 09:20 PM.


#30 Julia Falling

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 03:22 PM

Let me say a word about the Amplified Bible. The various synonyms in parentheses are NOT alternate translations of the original Greek or Hebrew word. If they were, I'd recommend this translation highly. Instead, they are synonyms of the English [translated] word. That's a very different thing, a bad thing.

 

Each English word has a different range of meanings than the Greek/Hebrew word. Each synonym has its own range of meaning, again, different than the original Hebrew/Greek. As a result, the Amplified Bible doesn't solve the problem. It compounds it!

 

Use a lexicon to find the range of meaning for the original words. If nothing else, rely on the gloss [short meaning] in Instant Details in Accordance. If that isn't enough information, then press the command key [PC Alt] and read the entry in that source. If that still isn't enough, buy a good wordbook or lexicon for each language. It's the only way I know to nail the meaning of the original words.

 

We recently looked more closely into the Amplified Bible.  Like the NASB, it comes from the Lockman Foundation (non-profit).  It, in fact, was not translated by a lady with an English thesaurus, but by a lady who studied Hebrew and Greek.  Here's the link.  Just wanted to set the record straight.


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#31 Fabian

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 03:54 PM

Unfortunately the link refers only to another Software.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


Greetings

 

Fabian

 

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bug, which I describe.

 

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#32 Fabian

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 04:17 PM

BTW, I think a translation that actually did what the Amplified claims would be a great asset. Anyone want to write one?

 

A church member of us would also love this, in German. Best with Strongs and morph tagging too.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


Greetings

 

Fabian

 

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bug, which I describe.

 

Mac Air (13-inch, Mid 2013)

1,3 GHz Intel Core i5

4GB Ram

Next time: I'll buy only one with Retina, and hopefully without a glossy screen. A faster CPU and more RAM.

 

Sierra 10.12.1

Accordance 12.0.1 and waiting on 13 (on iPad Pro with 3D touch)

 

iPhone 4S

iOS 9.3.5

Accordance Mobile 2.4.3


#33 Julia Falling

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 04:46 PM

Unfortunately the link refers only to another Software.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

 

 

That link takes you you the Lockman site, the page dealing with the Amplified.  It's not software.  Lockman doesn't sell software.


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#34 Fabian

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 04:53 PM

Hello Julie

 

On the Lockman foundation for the Amplified 2015 is a link to another software. It was not against what you wrote, more that the Lockman foundation is not referring to Accordance on this side. 

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


Greetings

 

Fabian

 

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bug, which I describe.

 

Mac Air (13-inch, Mid 2013)

1,3 GHz Intel Core i5

4GB Ram

Next time: I'll buy only one with Retina, and hopefully without a glossy screen. A faster CPU and more RAM.

 

Sierra 10.12.1

Accordance 12.0.1 and waiting on 13 (on iPad Pro with 3D touch)

 

iPhone 4S

iOS 9.3.5

Accordance Mobile 2.4.3


#35 Julia Falling

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 05:44 PM

Hello Julie

 

On the Lockman foundation for the Amplified 2015 is a link to another software. It was not against what you wrote, more that the Lockman foundation is not referring to Accordance on this side. 

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

 

This is the info from the link – scroll down past the video:

 

"The Story of the Amplified Bible

"The story of the Amplified Bible is a remarkable story of faith, hope, and love. It's the story of a woman, a foundation, a committee, and a publisher. Commitment, energy, enthusiasm, and giftedness--these are the words that paint the picture, the picture of the making of a translation.
 
"Frances Siewert (Litt. B., B.D., M.A., Litt. D.) was a woman with an intense dedication to the study of the Bible. It was Mrs. Siewert (1881-1967) who laid the foundation of the Amplified Bible, devoting her life to a familiarity with the Bible, with the Hebrew and Greek languages, and with the cultural and archaeological background of Biblical times, which would result in the publication of this unique translation.
 
"Every vision needs visionaries willing to follow the cause. The story of this dream is no different. Mrs. Siewert's vision was seen by a California non-profit foundation called The Lockman Foundation, made up of Christian men and women who through their commitment, their expertise, and their financial support under girded Mrs. Siewert's monumental translation project. The Lockman Foundation's purpose remains today what is was then: to promote Bible translation, Christian evangelism, education, and benevolence.
 
"Commitment, energy, enthusiasm, giftedness --the things visions are made of--describes the efforts of the committee appointed by The Lockman Foundation to carefully review the impressive work of Mrs. Siewert. This Editorial Board, made up of dedicated people, lent credibility and organization to this unprecedented attempt to bring out the richness of the Hebrew and Greek languages within the English text itself.
 
"One chapter yet remained to bring the vision into reality. A publishing house in Grand Rapids, Michigan, on its way to becoming a major religious publishing firm, seized the opportunity to participate in a project which all visionaries involved strongly believed would be used by God to change lives. The Zondervan Publishing House joined the team, and the dream became reality with the publication of The Amplified New Testament in 1958, followed by the two-volume Amplified Old Testament in 1962 and 1964, and the one-volume Amplified Bible in 1965.
 

"Since the Amplified Bible was first translated in the sixties, there have been changes in both the style and usage of the English language; therefore, it seemed appropriate for The Lockman Foundation to revisit this well-loved translation of God's Word. Accordingly, Dr. Robert G. Lambeth, President of The Lockman Foundation, established a translation team and under his leadership the project was developed and completed in 2015. The result is a new Amplified Bible translation that is contemporary and firmly based on the foundation established by the Amplified Bible of 1965."

 

The video shows a woman with a print Bible, Amplified 2015, in front of her.  It says that the Amplified is available in print or software (something called E-SWORD).  Whether it comes print or electronic form has no bearing at all on the development of the version.  My whole point in posting this is to clarify that Frances Siewert didn't use an English thesaurus to expand a version, she used Hebrew & Greek lexicons.  I am not trying to say anything about anybody's software here.  I'm merely trying to relate how the version came into being.  And the link will get you to the story quoted above.

 

EDIT:  I added some quotation marks and italics to attempt to make clear where the quote begins and ends.


Edited by Julie Falling, 03 February 2016 - 10:46 AM.

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#36 Obed Benyah

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 08:17 PM

Julie:

Thank you for the update on the Amplified Bible 2015. I'll have to take a look at that when I have the time.

Everett Fox's two volumes have given me much insight and much inspiration. I simply can't wait another 20 years for volume three. I'm not likely to still be alive by then.

 

Since my original postings I've been motivated to do a bit of "re-translating" of my own on Scripture in order discover more of its original flavor and intent. That's a huge challenge for me since I don't have little to no formal or extensive training in Hebrew thought, Hebrew and Greek language issues, etc. I do, however, have numerous translations, lexicons, etc. to use as reference tools, as you've suggested. I've taken to re-creating the text in my personal note files in Accordance. That way I can instantly compare my notes with other books in the program. It's challenging to say the least, but it's extremely informative. Perhaps one day I can find a way to make it available to others within Accordance.

 

That, too, will be a challenge because I'm not a "techie" or a "geek". I'm just a senior citizen with a heart for The Truth of YAHWEH! To get to that stage I'll need much assistance. Meanwhile, if anyone is interested in seeing a rather different perspective on the text you're invited to visit my website, amarel.com. (There is nothing there "for sale" - it's all free.) Posted there in PDF form is the entire New Covenant and the first 8 books of The Old Covenant. I'm currently working on 2 Samuel - Shemu'el. Included in The Old Covenant text is an entirely unique approach to understanding the use of the aleph-tau construct. I discovered the foundations of this perspective in an old book I found on line. It opened up a whole new perspective for me on Scripture. What I've put together thus far is "a work in progress". It's FAR from a finished piece. It will take much editing and review to get it polished. But it's a beginning, and I believe it's an important one. The aleph-tau construct appears to me to have been extremely misconstrued in most previous works. It's far, far more than an "identified of a direct object".

 

Shalom,

Obed


He has explained to you, oh man, what is good, and what YAHWEH requires of you: 

- Do justice, 

- Love mercy, and 

- Walk humbly with your Elohim.

                                                  Micah 6.8


#37 Michael Miles

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 09:59 PM

Accordance does not have these two resources, but you can purchase actual books.

 

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible:

http://www.amazon.co...m/dp/082543601X

 

The Bible: James Moffatt Translation:

http://www.amazon.co...s=moffatt bible

 

The Old Testament portions of these works are very good.  I cannot attest to the New Testament portions.



#38 Obed Benyah

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 01:40 PM

Michael,

Thank you for your recommendations. I have both of these.

Each of them has its merits, and its short-comings.

I have yet to see a text that accurately and consistently gives the name of The Elohim.

Invariably most of them use the English "transliteration" of Hebrew names, or an English "representation" of a name which ends up leaving out the vital significance within the Hebrew culture of a name and its meaning. This is a tragic loss because the English reader has no clue at to the meaning and value of the name.

To leave out - intentionally - the name of YAHWEH is to violate intensively what's referred to as "The Third Commandment". (And quite literally, it's not a "commandment" but is instead an instruction. Torah means, profoundly, teaching! It does not mean "command". Yet that has become the "traditional standard" for English texts.

I certainly understand there is no "perfect" text, nor will there ever be in this life. There will be on in the next from what I can perceive.

Meanwhile I yearn for clarity and consistency in the text.

I yearn for total honesty in the publication of the text. To know, for example, the name of YAHWEH yet to substitute for it "The Lord" or whatever else gets inserted (Ha Shem, Adonai, etc.) is HERESY!!!! It is an detestable for the very reason it belittles, treats lightly, the name of my Elohim.

I count this as terrible "scholarship".  And it's only one of many similar errors that have been inserted into our "Bibles" by "the traditions of men".

The Messiah Himself condemned such actions.

How can we, in our "enlightened age", possibly condone such practices? We know better. But we have failed to correct what we know to be blatant errors.

Can YAHWEH be pleased with such an approach to HIS WORD? I think not!

May we humbly confess our offenses before His throne of compassion - and change the way we treat His Word!

 

Obed Benyah


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He has explained to you, oh man, what is good, and what YAHWEH requires of you: 

- Do justice, 

- Love mercy, and 

- Walk humbly with your Elohim.

                                                  Micah 6.8


#39 Michael Miles

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 09:17 PM

Hi Obed,

 

You are not going to find a translation that gives the real meaning of the names of the people noted in the Word of God as their names.  You also are not going to find a translation that emphatically illustrates the value of numbers made mention of in the Word of God.  When the names of Abram and Sarai were changed by God to Abraham and Sarah, the significance is lost to most Bible students.  The letter Heth was added to each of their names.  Heth is the fifth letter of the Hebrew alphabet and the number five signifies Grace.  Things like that cannot be translated, but are left to the few that choose to dig deeper and ask for help and guidance from the only one that can open eyes and ears.  In both the case of the names and of the numbers, going directly to the Hebrew is the only route.  I believe that is purposeful, as only those that really want to know will get out a shovel and dig.

 

Regards,

Michael


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#40 Helen Brown

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 09:57 AM

Obed:

 

You are entitled to your opinions on the state of English translations, but the manner in which you are expressing them here is actually violating our forum guidelines:

 

Discussion of Biblical interpretation, points of theology, and personal beliefs is inappropriate for this board, as are personal announcements and off-topic requests. While we encourage such interchange, we ask that you discuss these issues privately, rather than using the Forums. Content directly attacking the character of a person or group is also prohibited.

 

 

Please try to keep to our guidelines. they are there for the good of all our users.


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