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Alternative Hebrew Aspect selections


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#41 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 07:05 PM

Ken,

 

To stay on focus, and just to be clear, are you advocating changing the names on the Verb > Aspect menu only, and not changing the names perfect, imperfect, and waw consecutive in the Instant Details parsing window to qatal, yiqtol, and wayyiqtol?

 

Either way, I thought it would be a simple find and replace program that wouldn't affect the WLC tags themselves.


  


#42 Ken Simpson

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 07:09 PM

Personally (and I have no weight in this matter) I would like to see it in the menu and in the ID. It would be confusing to separate the search and results in that sense IMHO


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#43 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:21 PM

no two scholars agree on everything, so would there even be an alternate nomenclature that would meet wide acceptance?

 

 

Hi Helen,

 

 

IMHO, I don't think you would need scholarly agreement - just options for some items on the Verb > Aspect menu:

 

perfect / qatal

 

imperfect / yiqtol

 

waw consecutive / wayyiqtol

 

participle / qotel

 

passive participle / qatul

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Michel


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#44 Tony Pyles

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:57 PM

I would love to see this as an option in preferences, but would not want to see this as a replacement, for the simple reason that so many first-year grammars retain the language of perfect, imperfect, etc. I think it would be of great benefit for those of us with a good bit of Hebrew under our belts,* but I think for the sake of beginning students this should be an option in preferences that can be toggled back and forth rather than a global change to what the user sees.

 

*or for students using grammars that have the newer labels…


Edited by Tony Pyles, 13 October 2014 - 08:58 PM.

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#45 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 09:36 PM

Hi Tony,

 

We are not advocating a replacement. The present Verb > Aspect menu would be the default.

 

I think we're agreed on the nomenclature of change. I am suggesting to Helen that we need not agree on the implementation: the replacement option would not have to be a global one, i.e., we would not have to agree on the entire Aspect menu, because each item on it could be set as a preference.

 

 

Regards


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#46 Helen Brown

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 02:00 PM

Well, before you all rewrite Accordance for us, I am told that this will not be easy to program, so please don't expect these options any time soon, if ever.


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#47 Peter Brylov Christensen

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 02:56 PM

Well, before you all rewrite Accordance for us, I am told that this will not be easy to program, so please don't expect these options any time soon, if ever.

 

Ah, what a pity. I guess that goes for the binyanim stem alternative option as well. But good to know - thank you for making enquiries on the matter. 

 

With kind regards

 

Pchris


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#48 Ken Simpson

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 08:25 PM

Well, before you all rewrite Accordance for us, I am told that this will not be easy to program, so please don't expect these options any time soon, if ever.

 

Interesting that it’s that hard. Seems conceptually simple. Shows how developers face a hard call...


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#49 Enoch

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 11:51 AM

Well, before you all rewrite Accordance for us, I am told that this will not be easy to program, so please don't expect these options any time soon, if ever.

Would it be difficult to add (without deleting anything) the 3-6 symbols alpha-numeric Archer code? (G10 for qal perfect active masculine 3rd person singular -- certainly shorter than a Strong number)?
 
I will opine that the purpose of Instant Details is to give information to those who don't know it, rather than be an academic recitation.  Thus if the Qatal, Yiqtol, Wayyiqtol system is to be added, it would be of benefit as an addition, instead of a substitute.  Thus it would be useful added on to the current system instead of replacing it. And it could educate those who were educated on the older system now exhibited in Accordance.


Edited by Enoch, 16 October 2014 - 12:29 PM.


#50 Enoch

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 12:18 PM

Hi Enoch,

 

If I recall, Gleason Archer told his 1986 Aramaic class at TEDS that he invented this alpha-numeric parsing system. Since LaSor's Handbook came out in 78/79, he probably learned it from Archer when their times overlapped at Fuller Theological Seminary. I'm open to correction though.

 

For the layout, see the attached file.

 

[Edit: Sorry about the misaligned vowel points and cells in the original pdf file; I replaced it with a screenshot.]

 

2nd Edit: I found and attached LaSor's Table of Indicators, Handbook:2, p. 90.]

 

One advantage of adopting it in Accordance would be to combine the neutral terms qatal, yiqtol, etc. with the rest of the parsing information - e.g., qatal G12, or yiqtol Dp 22. So I would also like to see it.

 

However, even though it would be relatively easy for Accordance to program this, I doubt that there would be much interest in it. I doubt that many have even heard of it.

 

If I had to choose between Accordance offering qatal, yiqtol, etc. and the alpha-numeric parsing system as options, I would choose the former.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

Thanks for adding the Lasor table to your post Michel.  

I didn't know about the expanded version of this Archer? system now posted above whereby (for example) one can simply put

Gc20s1 for

"3rd person masculine singular, imperfect with 3rd person feminine singular suffix and wāw conversive"



#51 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 01:31 PM

Hi,

 

In case anyone missed it on the complete list of what's new in 11.1 at http://www.accordanc...m/New-Since-11/ , you can now use the terms Qatal/Yiqtol in searches. Set them at Preferences > Greek & Hebrew.

 

Attached File  Modern qtl terms.PNG   8.19KB   0 downloads

 

These terms even show up in Instant Details.

 

This is an unexpected and very welcome new feature. Thank you Accordance.

 

Regards,

 

Michel


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#52 Peter Brylov Christensen

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 03:42 PM

i'm very happy with this feature, too! :)


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#53 Tony Pyles

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:09 AM

Yes, many thanks, indeed!


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#54 Harvey

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 11:09 AM

A couple of questions regarding the "cohortative" tags: Am I correct that the tag "cohortative heh" is not used? If so, shouldn't it be removed as a searchable tag? The tagging of verbs in Gen. 22:5 and in Ex. 14:4 and 17 as "cohortative form" seems arbitrary; shouldn't they be tagged "cohortative both"? (I note also the seemingly arbitrary "jussive form" in Gen. 4:12.)

#55 Joel Brown

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 11:20 AM

The tab dialog lists some forms only present in other texts. For instance, cohortativeHeh is used in various DSSB texts.


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#56 Ken Simpson

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:11 PM

A couple of questions regarding the "cohortative" tags: Am I correct that the tag "cohortative heh" is not used? If so, shouldn't it be removed as a searchable tag? The tagging of verbs in Gen. 22:5 and in Ex. 14:4 and 17 as "cohortative form" seems arbitrary; shouldn't they be tagged "cohortative both"? (I note also the seemingly arbitrary "jussive form" in Gen. 4:12.)

 

Hi Harvey, you may not know that our tagging is from the Westminster-Groves institute. At least as far as I know we do not mess with the tagging, we just make the tagging they give us searchable and comprehensible. If there are tagging issues, you can certainly report them to us via “report a correction” in the help menu, or submit them directly to W-G. which is what I understand we do with tagging corrections for the HMT. We maintain our own Greek tagging database, so we can be directly responsive to them.


Edited by Ken Simpson, 30 November 2015 - 07:11 PM.

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#57 Brian K. Mitchell

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 11:07 PM

Hi,

 

In case anyone missed it on the complete list of what's new in 11.1 at http://www.accordanc...m/New-Since-11/ , you can now use the terms Qatal/Yiqtol in searches. Set them at Preferences > Greek & Hebrew.

 

 

Wow, thanks for bring this to fore front!!!

I did not notice this at all what a great surprise! :lol:


חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

 

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