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#1 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:52 PM

Hi,

 

I have been trying to find every וְ + imperfect clause, excluding clauses that are jussive and cohortative in form and meaning, and clauses with לֹא in them.

 

I have read the Negating Element Items page at http://accordancefil...ement_items.htm

 

However, I have been unsuccessful so far. I would be much obliged if someone sent me a screenshot of how to do this. I have the syntax module if that helps.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Michel



#2 Ken Simpson

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:55 PM

I’m not 100% sure if this is what you are after, but is this what you want? (I hope I understand what you are looking for...)

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2014-10-09 at 13.28.10 .png   24KB   0 downloads

 

So as I understand this logic,

 

The clause (top level) has a waw followed by an imperfect - and that verb cannot have a cohortative or jussive form or meaning.

 

Also, as part of that clause, lo cannot be in it anywhere, hence the negated option. And ticked “search both ways” so that lo can be anywhere in the clause.

 

I think that will find what you want, though I am not expert in syntax searches.


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#3 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:29 PM

Hi Ken,

 

You understand my question, except I don't need וְ and the imperfect to be within 1. 

 

I tried almost the exact search, with לא in a different column. But it doesn't negate it. See the attached screenshot:

 

 

 

Thanks.

Attached Files



#4 Ken Simpson

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 01:21 AM

OK - I think I see my mistake in logic. Sorry for the misleading track.

 

The issue is that in the construct we devised the negated lo is outside the ו + imperfect list, so if we add לא in as a negated inter item, I think it gives us what we want, and it makes it even better if we add the PLACE 1 under the ו because (as I understand it) you want the clauses to just that containו, but that begin with a ו and contain an imperfect.

 

So try this.

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2014-10-09 at 17.17.46 .png   475.98KB   0 downloads

 

Do you think this better reflects what you are looking for?


Edited by Ken Simpson, 09 October 2014 - 01:22 AM.

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#5 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 01:37 AM

Ken,

At first glance it looks like it does. It's late, so I'll try it tomorrow.

Thank you very much.

#6 Ken Simpson

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 01:40 AM

No worries Michel. Keep back at me if it’s not quite what you want. It’s real fun trying to construct and solve these.  ^_^


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#7 Robert Holmstedt

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 10:09 AM

To be clear, I'm not sure how this is a syntax module question. It looks to me like a complex morphological search, not a syntax one. But I'm open to correction.


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#8 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 01:28 PM

Ken,

 

When I drag the NOT command to the INTER box, it does not negate it. The red bar just disappears.

 

See attached screenshot.

 

Thanks.

 

Accordance 10.4.3.2 for Windows

Windows 8.1 Pro, Dell Inspiron 17r-5721 with Intel Core i7 3537U CPU, x64

 

 

Attached Files



#9 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 01:34 PM

 Hi Robert,

 

It may not technically be a syntax search, at least from the perspective of a trained linguist, but one of the practical uses of the syntax module is to limit morphological searches to clauses. I take advantage of all the syntax levels/categories for morphological searches whenever I can.

 

[While I am on this topic, if perchance you read, "Another major concern is that incorrect tags in the parsing information might affect grammatical and syntax searches" at http://www.accordanc...ic=13494&page=3 , I meant that errors might creep in when one combines the syntax categories with morphological tags. I did not mean there were errors in the syntax module.]

 

However, my interest is in the syntax of those clauses. Twenty eight years ago at TEDS I took a course on HB syntax that, among other things, explained the syntax of background, circumstantial, and wayyiqtol clauses, based on a synthesis of Richter's clausal analysis in Grundlagen einer althebräischen Grammatik, Gross' Verbform und Funktion: Wayyiqtol für die Gegenwart, Michel's Tempora und Satzstellung in den Psalmen, Anderson's The Sentence in Biblical Hebrew, and Sailhamer's own ideas.

 

 

Yesterday I was wondering whether וְ + subject =noun or noun phrase + imperfect could be the functional equivalent of a וַיִּקְטֹל clause. Sailhamer taught that וְ doesn't convert a tense, so (besides the shortened forms) all I see in וַיִּקְטֹל is a ו , a pronominal element, and an imperfect verb . So I wanted to search for וְ + impf, excluding volitive meanings, read the clauses to get a sense of their syntax, and then run true syntax searches on word order, and elements shifted before the verb. If we believe וַיִּקְטֹל is based on semitic יקטל , and that there is a past narrative conjugation, couldn't this conjugation appear in other places?

 

(Edit: A cursory reading suggests to me that the functional equivalent would be וְ + something intervening between it and the verb that is not the subject + imperfect + subject )

 

I am not a trained linguist, but the syntax modules push me to read more on the subject. Would you be willing to list a few books and articles we should read, either on this forum, or in the Manual you are preparing?

 

The syntax module is wonderful. Thank you for your work. I can't wait to get the remaining books.

 

Michel

 

http://www.degruyter.../product/176594


Edited by Michel Gilbert, 09 October 2014 - 06:33 PM.


#10 Fabian

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 01:41 PM

This Year I had contact with the deGruyter Verlag and I know that they will work with Accordance. 

 

My Question there was about the Walter Bauer (BDAG in english) in german to implant in Accordance. But my intense were also for other modules too.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


Edited by Fabian, 09 October 2014 - 01:42 PM.

Greetings

Fabian

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#11 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 01:54 PM

Hi Fabian,

My de Gruyter link was a roundabout way of revealing my full name; I am the author of that book. I thought Dr. Holmstedt might be interested.

 

I do wish to remain anonymous otherwise.

 

Michel



#12 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 01:59 PM

 The larger font sizes are not my doing; my fonts don't appear the same after I press Post. I am not shouting at anyone.



#13 Ken Simpson

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 04:26 PM

 

Ken,

 

When I drag the NOT command to the INTER box, it does not negate it. The red bar just disappears.

 

See attached screenshot.

 

Thanks.

 

Accordance 10.4.3.2 for Windows

Windows 8.1 Pro, Dell Inspiron 17r-5721 with Intel Core i7 3537U CPU, x64

 

 

 

 

Well, I think you can. No I am not trying to be contrary, but I think you will find that the issue is that the two boxes overlap. If you make the clause box big enough for the INTER box to exist in it easily with no overlap, then I think you will find it will negate happily. I had to play with the construct for a while to work out why it wouldn’t negate. Sorry, I should have made a note about it.
 

I have posted a screen cap movie for you to see what I mean.


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#14 Ken Simpson

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 04:26 PM

 

Ken,

 

When I drag the NOT command to the INTER box, it does not negate it. The red bar just disappears.

 

See attached screenshot.

 

Thanks.

 

Accordance 10.4.3.2 for Windows

Windows 8.1 Pro, Dell Inspiron 17r-5721 with Intel Core i7 3537U CPU, x64

 

 

 

 

Well, I think you can. No I am not trying to be contrary, but I think you will find that the issue is that the two boxes overlap. If you make the clause box big enough for the INTER box to exist in it easily with no overlap, then I think you will find it will negate happily. I had to play with the construct for a while to work out why it wouldn’t negate. Sorry, I should have made a note about it.
 

I have posted a screen cap movie for you to see what I mean.

Attached Files


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#15 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 04:38 PM

I knew you would be able to solve this.

 

Thanks again.



#16 Ken Simpson

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 04:50 PM

Glad to be of help. And I always learn when I try these things. Like I keep saying, I have been using Accordance for 20years, but I only feel like I know about 5%!


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#17 Michel Gilbert

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 05:22 PM

Ken,

 

Here is an opportunity to learn even more.

 

In what appears to be the same search, there there are 1643 hits in your first post, 2771 in your screencap movie, and 5856 in mine. If I limit וְ to place 1, the number goes down to 4634.

 

 

 

See attached screenshot.

Attached Files



#18 Ken Simpson

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 05:45 PM

OK - there’s definitely an anomaly here. I might have to work on it and ask some questions. I just ran the same construct on different versions of accordance and got different answers...


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#19 Ken Simpson

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:17 PM

OK - I cannot reproduce what you have anyway that I can think of here.

 

Can you please save the workspace and email it to me? Plus, can you please check that all your texts (specially HMT-W4 are updated and the syntax trees are updated). And, what version of the Accordance software are you using?

 

Thanks (I will PM my email address to you)


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#20 Ken Simpson

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:29 PM

Can you try this one and see what results you get?

 

Thanks

 

 

Attached Files


Edited by Ken Simpson, 09 October 2014 - 06:30 PM.

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