Jump to content


Photo

וְ + imperfect clause search


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#21 Michel Gilbert

Michel Gilbert

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,214 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS, Android

Posted 10 October 2014 - 11:28 AM

Hi Ken,

 

 

I get 5856 hits; with ו in first place I get 4634.

 

I will read through them all, see if they are all ו + Imperfect, and report back to you.



#22 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 860 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:25 PM

Dear Michel,

 

 

Hi Robert,

 

It may not technically be a syntax search, at least from the perspective of a trained linguist, but one of the practical uses of the syntax module is to limit morphological searches to clauses. I take advantage of all the syntax levels/categories for morphological searches whenever I can.

 

 

I'm glad to hear this!

 

 

[While I am on this topic, if perchance you read, "Another major concern is that incorrect tags in the parsing information might affect grammatical and syntax searches" at http://www.accordanc...ic=13494&page=3 , I meant that errors might creep in when one combines the syntax categories with morphological tags. I did not mean there were errors in the syntax module.]

 

I did not take it this way, but of course there are errors in the syntax. I will spend the next 10 years proofing the texts. Dean Forbes chuckles about it every time we chat.

 

 

However, my interest is in the syntax of those clauses. Twenty eight years ago at TEDS I took a course on HB syntax that, among other things, explained the syntax of background, circumstantial, and wayyiqtol clauses, based on a synthesis of Richter's clausal analysis in Grundlagen einer althebräischen Grammatik, Gross' Verbform und Funktion: Wayyiqtol für die Gegenwart, Michel's Tempora und Satzstellung in den Psalmen, Anderson's The Sentence in Biblical Hebrew, and Sailhamer's own ideas.

 

Yesterday I was wondering whether וְ + subject =noun or noun phrase + imperfect could be the functional equivalent of a וַיִּקְטֹל clause. Sailhamer taught that וְ doesn't convert a tense, so (besides the shortened forms) all I see in וַיִּקְטֹל is a ו , a pronominal element, and an imperfect verb . So I wanted to search for וְ + impf, excluding volitive meanings, read the clauses to get a sense of their syntax, and then run true syntax searches on word order, and elements shifted before the verb. If we believe וַיִּקְטֹל is based on semitic יקטל , and that there is a past narrative conjugation, couldn't this conjugation appear in other places?

 

Well, that's a sticky issue. The simple answer is "yes," there are preterite yiqtols without the way- on the front. They are most in poetic texts and can be only surely identified by the "short" morphology that appears in the weak verbs or Hifil examples (e.g., יַצֵּב in Deut 32.8). Sadly, the simple answer is inadequate, and these "short" forms are questioned by some and qualified (rightly) by others (I suggest reading John Cook, Time and the Hebrew Verb (Eisenbrauns, 2012), p. 260ff. 

 

I agree with Sailhamer that the waw converts nothing. It's just a waw. But I disagree that the yiqtol is the same in every case -- again, I recommend Cook's book, which presents the best model for the BH verbal system.

 

 

(Edit: A cursory reading suggests to me that the functional equivalent would be וְ + something intervening between it and the verb that is not the subject + imperfect + subject )

 

I am not a trained linguist, but the syntax modules push me to read more on the subject. Would you be willing to list a few books and articles we should read, either on this forum, or in the Manual you are preparing?

 

The syntax module is wonderful. Thank you for your work. I can't wait to get the remaining books.

 

Michel

 

http://www.degruyter.../product/176594

 

Interesting volume. I hope to find time to read it. (I hardly have time to read emails these days.)

 

Again, I'm glad to hear that our syntax module is useful. The full manual will follow the final (first) complete draft of the database. I tried to start a manual a few times, but we kept changing the subtleties of the searching interface, which made it useless to continue since my examples became outdated with each change. 

 

I tried to describe the basic ideas in my Accordance presentation at SBL in 2010, and provided some good reading in the footnotes for the adventurous. I thought I agve it to the Accordance folks to post, but I only see my older presentation from 2009. So I have attached it here for anyone interested to read. I only include the introduction and not the subsequent 70 pages of single-spaced tagging notes. Those are the germ of a reference grammar that I am co-writing.

 

 

Attached Files


Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#23 Michel Gilbert

Michel Gilbert

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,214 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS, Android

Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:40 PM

Hi Ken,

 

I don't need to read them all.

 

I just went through all the results in the Law/Pentateuch, with ו restricted to Place 1, and they are all correct, with one possible exception (Deut 13:16). My numbers are 564 verses, with 1304 hits.

 

If I delete the Place 1 criterion, the hits rise to 1826.

 

So, your figure of 1643 is definitely too low for the whole HB; 2771 is also probably incorrect.

 

Thanks.



#24 Michel Gilbert

Michel Gilbert

    Platinum

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,214 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS, Android

Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:42 PM

Hi Robert,

 

 

Just a brief response.

 

I just went through the ו in first place + impf clauses in the Law, and I was very impressed by the accurate tagging of clause boundaries.

 

I agree with you that yiqtols are not the same in every case.

 

Cook's Time and the Hebrew Verb is already high on my list; I would like to read it soon.

 

[Edit: The null constituent in my remark to Fabian, "I thought Dr. Holmstedt might be interested in it," refers to my name, not my book.]

 

Thanks for the attachment. I'm sure that many will download it.

 

And thanks for taking the time to respond this very busy weekend.

 

 

Happy Thanksgiving


Edited by Michel Gilbert, 11 October 2014 - 10:07 PM.


#25 Ken Simpson

Ken Simpson

    Mithril

  • Accordance
  • 2,486 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia
  • Interests:My grandsons Micah and Nate!
    Astronomy
    Archaeology
    Physics
    Hebrew and Greek
    Papyrology
    Orthopædic Surgery
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 10 October 2014 - 06:49 PM

Hi Prof Holmstedt, would you be happy for me to post this version of your notes on the Accordance Exchange?

 

Thanks


Hi Ken,

 

I don't need to read them all.

 

I just went through all the results in the Law/Pentateuch, with ו restricted to Place 1, and they are all correct, with one possible exception (Deut 13:16). My numbers are 564 verses, with 1304 hits.

 

If I delete the Place 1 criterion, the hits rise to 1826.

 

So, your figure of 1643 is definitely too low for the whole HB; 2771 is also probably incorrect.

 

Thanks.

 

There are some strange things happening with the counts I think, still investigating in the spare time. Glad the pentateuch ones seem correct!


Regards
Ken
Lead Australian Accordance Demonstrator
Administrator, Accordance Exchange
Assistant Minister, Summer Hill Church

#26 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 860 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:02 PM

Ken, that would be fine. Thank you.
Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#27 Ken Simpson

Ken Simpson

    Mithril

  • Accordance
  • 2,486 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia
  • Interests:My grandsons Micah and Nate!
    Astronomy
    Archaeology
    Physics
    Hebrew and Greek
    Papyrology
    Orthopædic Surgery
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 11 October 2014 - 06:14 AM

No, thank you!


Regards
Ken
Lead Australian Accordance Demonstrator
Administrator, Accordance Exchange
Assistant Minister, Summer Hill Church

#28 Brian K. Mitchell

Brian K. Mitchell

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 415 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:JAPAN
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Windows

Posted 12 October 2014 - 06:35 AM

 Glad the pentateuch ones seem correct!

 

I am glad to hear (or rather read) this!
 


חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

 

Currently running Accordance on:

Windows 10 (64bit)

FRNX Series  (2015)
Core i7-4710 MQ CPU @ 2.50GHz


#29 Ken Simpson

Ken Simpson

    Mithril

  • Accordance
  • 2,486 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia
  • Interests:My grandsons Micah and Nate!
    Astronomy
    Archaeology
    Physics
    Hebrew and Greek
    Papyrology
    Orthopædic Surgery
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS

Posted 12 October 2014 - 07:03 AM

Just as a note - Prof Holmstedt’s paper is now posted on the Exchange.


Regards
Ken
Lead Australian Accordance Demonstrator
Administrator, Accordance Exchange
Assistant Minister, Summer Hill Church

#30 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 860 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 12 October 2014 - 10:05 AM

Thank you, Ken.


Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#31 David Knoll

David Knoll

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 251 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:16 AM

I wanted to ask when you expect the DSS syntax to be complete, and regarding the following paragraph:

"Second, the additional semantic and pragmatic layers would add a disproportionate number of years to the project. Whereas we are confident that we will finish all our ancient Hebrew texts in the next 2-3 years, it would likely take a decade (or more) to produce a multi-layered database."

If that is a project you intend to undertake in the future.

Many thanks for your work. Your database helped me answer many stylistic and syntactical questions over the last two years.

Edited by David Knoll, 13 October 2014 - 04:28 AM.


#32 Robert Holmstedt

Robert Holmstedt

    Platinum

  • Accordance
  • 860 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 13 October 2014 - 09:17 AM

Well, the DSS are well along, but there are additional complexities in the database due to the fact that clauses can break across lines and Accordance currently uses the "line" like a biblical "verse". Indeed, this is an even more problematic issue in the inscriptions syntax, since words can break across lines. Short answer-- they are *all* preliminarily tagged. Long answer--we have more proofing and work to do before releasing them for public use. 

 

As for the semantic and pragmatic layers, I have no definite plans to do this. The syntax layer will take me long enough to proof to the point where I think it's 99% accurate (my goal). Moreover, whereas our syntax tagging itself is obviously interpretative, this would be greatly more the case for semantics and pragmatics. The result would probably be something quite a bit too "Cook" (on semantics) and "Holmstedt" (on pragmatics) for most people to choke down.  ;)


  • David Knoll likes this
Professor, Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages
Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations
The University of Toronto
blog: ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com
https://utoronto.aca...RobertHolmstedt

#33 David Knoll

David Knoll

    Gold

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 251 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Accordance Version:12.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, iOS

Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:04 AM

Thank you for your quick response. I eagerly await both DBs.

#34 Helen Brown

Helen Brown

    Emerald

  • Admin
  • 12,014 posts
  • Twitter:accordancebible
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:heart in Israel
  • Accordance Version:13.x
  • Platforms:Mac OS X, Windows, iOS, Android

Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:53 PM

I tried to describe the basic ideas in my Accordance presentation at SBL in 2010, and provided some good reading in the footnotes for the adventurous. I thought I agve it to the Accordance folks to post, but I only see my older presentation from 2009. So I have attached it here for anyone interested to read. I only include the introduction and not the subsequent 70 pages of single-spaced tagging notes. Those are the germ of a reference grammar that I am co-writing.

 

I have posted it on our Documentation page as well, though it's way too technical for me.


Helen Brown
OakTree Software




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users