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A good review of Accordance v Logos


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#41 Enoch

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 10:18 PM

Natan: "...and I find that my students who do use software are not sufficiently mastering the language (especially those without a Jewish background). This was not case before software became so prevalent!"

 

PChris : "Finally, I do wholly agree with you that any Bible Software has the inherent risk of making people lazy when it comes to learning and maintaining languages, which is why it must always be used with great care. As such, I'd always strongly recommend against using it until a sufficient level of mastery is attained. I spend at least 8 hours a day reading texts the old school way, be it Hebrew or Sumerian, and I refuse to make things easy for myself by using a concordance or the Instant Details in Accordance."

 

This issue has been commented upon before. The fault of course is not with the software and indeed it can be used in such a way as to minimize this problem. One can disable ID and one can not open a parallel pane when reading the OL text. I don't quite do it this way but I do read the text unaided (this is why I use flashcards so much - to learn vocab sufficiently to do this, though they are not perfect for several reasons) several times and then I struggle with the parsing and so on. Then I start to use methods available to look up and double check what I have constructed. I usually write my own translation before comparison with an existing one. It is not the same as looking up manually in resources I grant, and I believe that effort has a correlation in absorption so unfortunately SW can tend to work against that. People using software need to be aware of this and be disciplined in their use. One can of course cheat with printed materials as well - get an interlinear or read English beside the Greek/Hebrew/Ugaritic etc. without making sufficient effort on ones own.

 

Oh to have 8 hours a day to read ! Nice job you have there Peter.

 

Thx

D

As to the crutchophobia, I was taught in my first Greek class that you should not use things like interlinears & analytical lexicons.  But that was awful advice, IMHO.  I remember my bitter frustration in feeling conscience bound to obey the teacher on this.  One day I came across a strange Greek word in 1 John, it was the word ἕν.

 

 I ransacked Bauer's Lexicon (no Danker yet) trying to find  ἕν.  But you can look all day in Bauer & never find that word.  After about an hour of wasted time, I took my NT to a professor like in the hall & asked him what it meant.  It turned out to be the neuter of εἷς.  Later when I found myself teaching Greek in seminary I told the students to use any help they wanted to use.  The way it was put on me, I had to already know the word before I looked it up; but if I already knew the word, I wouldn't need to look it up.  Excessive pedantry wastes students' time and inhibits their learning Greek -- IMHO.


Edited by Enoch, 10 January 2015 - 10:22 PM.

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#42 Peter Brylov Christensen

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 11:52 AM

As to the crutchophobia, I was taught in my first Greek class that you should not use things like interlinears & analytical lexicons.  But that was awful advice, IMHO.  I remember my bitter frustration in feeling conscience bound to obey the teacher on this.  One day I came across a strange Greek word in 1 John, it was the word ἕν.

 

 I ransacked Bauer's Lexicon (no Danker yet) trying to find  ἕν.  But you can look all day in Bauer & never find that word.  After about an hour of wasted time, I took my NT to a professor like in the hall & asked him what it meant.  It turned out to be the neuter of εἷς.  Later when I found myself teaching Greek in seminary I told the students to use any help they wanted to use.  The way it was put on me, I had to already know the word before I looked it up; but if I already knew the word, I wouldn't need to look it up.  Excessive pedantry wastes students' time and inhibits their learning Greek -- IMHO.

 

 

But that is exactly my point - to this day you still remember the sweat and toil of figuring out what in the world ἕν was, and I'm sure that you'll never forget it either. From that day I'm certain that you never mistook ἕν for ἐν and vice versa. Efficiency is for when you already have mastered the language. Until that point you're better off struggling as it will make sure that the words causing you trouble are literally hewn into your mind after hours of reasoning and searching through grammars and lexica - no matter if you actually managed to figure it out by yourself in the end or if you had to give up and ask the teacher, although I'll admit that the former is much more satisfactory on a personal level.

 

I remember having a similar problem when I was learning Hebrew five years ago - I was doing fine most of the time, but one day I ran into a certain word in Job 1:20 - וַיִּשְׁתָּֽחוּ, "he worshipped". No matter how long I searched and looked that day, I was unable to figure out what the root was. After three, maybe four hours of intense yet absolutely fruitless searching, I reluctantly gave up and asked my teacher the next day what it was. When she told me that not only there were two possible choices (חוה or שׁחה), but that the word literally is a rule-breaker no matter how you look at it, I was both relieved and immensely annoyed at the same time. I hadn't been introduced to Ugaritic or Akkadian at that time, so it didn't occur to me to see the verb as a Št-stem of חוה or as a hitpalel of שׁחה with metathesis.

 

With kind regards

 

Peter Christensen


Edited by Pchris, 11 January 2015 - 11:58 AM.

Accordance Version: 11.0.8
Hardware: MacBook Pro 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7 (medio 2012)
Operating System: OSX 10.9.5 Mavericks.

#43 mwdiers

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 01:14 AM

I too have come from Logos, and before that was a Blbleworks user. I haven't "jumped ship" from Logos exactly, as I have a fairly vast library over there that I use regularly, but I did take advantage of a few competitive crossgrades on the resources that I regularly use (Got me up and running on BDAG, BDB Complete, HALOT and TDNT). For textual studies, I have almost entirely switched to Accordance. I still need to refer to the SESB texts and various apparati over there on occasion (also wish I had the Vulgate in Accordance), but for the most part, what I got in Accordance Essential is more than sufficient.

 

It took some adjustment. Accordance has a very different methodology. I miss the extensive tagging, for example, that lets me hover over a word in an English text and instantly see its corresponding Greek or Hebrew word (the actual word, not just the corresponging Strong's number lema), and it's morphology, without having to reverse-engineer it from a parallel Greek or Hebrew text. I don't miss how almost everything else is slower, and the ridiculous way they do indexing.


Edited by mwdiers, 18 January 2015 - 01:26 AM.


#44 Helen Brown

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 01:31 AM

The Instant Details display depends on your preferences. You can include the original word and the parsing, it's all about choice.


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#45 Scott Saunders

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 09:55 AM

As to the crutchophobia, I was taught in my first Greek class that you should not use things like interlinears & analytical lexicons.  But that was awful advice, IMHO.  I remember my bitter frustration in feeling conscience bound to obey the teacher on this.  One day I came across a strange Greek word in 1 John, it was the word ἕν.

Enoch, very well said.  Fortunately, I had profs that said it was okay and showed ways to make them work like a type of instant details.

 

My experience has been; it’s not one method over all others, but whichever is wisest for the situation. The right tool for the job kind of thinking.

 
If the job is to memorize glosses for a list of foreign words by next class, it might not be wise to employ the method for exegeting a key word’s context-sensitive nuance in time for Sunday. 
 
These are only two goals. And who has only two goals or one job—to memorize glosses or exegete a nuance?
 
Methods were made for man; not man for methods. If you’re not able to get the job done class after class or Sunday after Sunday or whatever after whatever; then don’t keep using the same method and expect different results. JMHO. The proof of the method is in the eating.
 

“Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it.”

 

“Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.”

 

“Maintaining the useless becomes a ritual of organized despair [paraphrase].”
 
(Bruce Lee)
 

I’ll end on time. Time gets spent and each time adds up.  Perseverance is a path you take time after time by a caravan of methods to arrive at knowing the vocabulary.  Some people have already arrived and set up castles. The rest of us, let’s keep persevering. I'm right behind you.


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