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Hebrew-Greek equivalents, comparison between MT and LXX?

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#1 rough2000

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 09:29 AM

I just bought a couple of modules along with an Original Language collection. But I am hesitating to buy "Hebrew Masoretic and Septuagint Parallel" module since I do not know it is the right one I want. What I need is that if I search or type a Hebrew word, then it finds every different translation words in LXX (Hebrew-Greek equivalents) with the statistics of how many times each Greek word is used for that Hebrew word--and vice versa (Greek to Hebrew).

 

This was one of the most valuable functions in Bibleworks which I have previously used (and you don't have to spend money to use this function). For example, you search Hebrew word "כלה to finish," it says it was translated into "ἐκλείπω" for 30 times, "συντελέω" for 91 times, and so on with every verse reference. Of course it could do the other way around (Greek to Hebrew equivalents).

 

Is Hebrew Masoretic and Septuagint Parallel module right one to do this? Or does Accordance have such a function in any module?


Edited by rough2000, 06 January 2015 - 10:51 AM.


#2 rough2000

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 12:04 PM

I am still trying to find out. But it seems that Accordance does not offer such a function. A little bit disappointing.


Edited by rough2000, 06 January 2015 - 12:06 PM.


#3 dlrude

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 12:39 PM

I have the "Hebrew Masoretic and Septuagint Parallel" module and I was trying earlier to produce the data that you described from it.

 

I had no luck doing so. I suspect that a more clever person could figure out how to do it with app or clever search.

 

So apparently this means that Accordance doesn't have a push button way to do it.

 

Ask one of the tech support folks. It seems like a worthy function not too hard to code. I would like to be able to use it as well.

 

Dave


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#4 John Fidel

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 12:58 PM

Here are two articles to assist you in your decision:

http://www.accordanc...MT-LXX-Parallel

 

 

The article is in two parts, but the links copied were the same. Run a search on MT/LXX and then click on the articles button at the top of the search results and you will find some examples.


Edited by John Fidel, 06 January 2015 - 01:02 PM.


#5 dlrude

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 01:13 PM

Thanks John,

 

I just read thru the MERGE search part. It's clever searching. It looks like much request could be satisfied.

 

It is a bit complex at first glance but probably doing it a few tries will make it sink in.

 

Is making a table of the info possible?

 

Dave


Edited by dlrude, 06 January 2015 - 01:13 PM.

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#6 John Fidel

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 02:28 PM

There are some view options that are discussed in part 2 of the article. Not sure it is what you want. There are also some updated resources as well as the interlinear that I do not have that may provide even more viewing options. I do not own those resources to test them for you.



#7 rough2000

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 05:27 PM

Well, I read the articles already yesterday, but the search they propose is too complex and the result is not that I want. I decided not to buy this module this time.


Edited by rough2000, 06 January 2015 - 05:31 PM.


#8 Tony Pyles

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 06:31 PM

Hi rough2000 (et al.),

 

The steps are complex, yes, but one can set it up once and then save the workspace. I've made such a workspace and Ken has made it available on the accordance exchange (http://www.accordanc...nge/windows.htm). It's the HMT-LXX Workspace that is presently about halfway down the list. In a nutshell, it allows you to specify a Hebrew word and a Greek word, and return in tabs using MT-LXX every occasion the one is used for the other, and then occasions where one is used but not the other. This is essentially going through the process yourself of discovering the data available in that BW click, which does mean you have to read through (and filter) the results. You may not be interested in that, but it's there, and others may be.

 

There are two print resources available that do what you describe (and may be the basis of the ability in BW, but I don't know). Hatch and Redpath, Concordance to the Septuagint, does this from the direction of the Greek (i.e., look up a LXX Greek word to see not only where it is used, but what Hebrew words it is used for). Muraoka's Greek≈Hebrew/Aramaic Two-Way Index to the Septuagint does this in both directions. The latter is built on the work of the former, and has some introductory discussion that is very helpful.

 

Part of the difficulty is that the Greek Old Testament does not have a stable textual tradition in the same manner as the Hebrew Bible, though the common parlance of "Septuagint" gives that impression.

 

I hope that helps,

Tony


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#9 rough2000

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 09:13 PM

Thanks a lot. Your comment is definitely helpful. Does your file work without "Hebrew Masoretic and Septuagint Parallel" module?

 

I used to use those references in my study, but when I found out BW could do the job by one-click, it was tremendously time-saving and convenient when I was doing some textual critical exercises. I hope Accordance to make one soon.


Edited by rough2000, 06 January 2015 - 11:28 PM.


#10 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 10:22 PM

Hi Tony,

 

  I am wondering why this seems so hard. I was just playing with this and just opening the MT-LXX Parallel in its own tab and running a Hebrew search for the כלה  and then add a second search field on Greek and search for συντελ* and set the search to paragraph. Setting Show Text As ... to Paragraph or to Add Titles and you get the data. It isn't one click but is that about correct ? Unfortunately as it's not a text you cannot do a lemma search but oh well.

 

Thx

D


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#11 Tony Pyles

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 11:59 PM

Hi Daniel,

 

I think two things make it hard: (a) not knowing how to run MT-LXX, and ( b ) not understanding the results. There's also the fact that while this provides a general guideline, especially for frequently used words, it honestly does not compare apples with apples (nor do the print resources or the "one-click" options)—i.e., we can't know for sure that the Hebrew text corresponds to the Vorlage of the Old Greek (which, in turn, may or may not be represented by the Greek text in the database).

 

Incidentally, I just worked out how to limit results to a certain book within MT-LXX using the Entry field. Cool!

 

Thanks,

Tony


Edited by Tony Pyles, 06 January 2015 - 11:59 PM.

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#12 Helen Brown

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 03:19 AM

For this tool we developed the MERGE command. This lets you run the lemma search in the texts themselves and pull the results into the MT-LXX Parallel. I recommend reading up on this command in the Help which gives a specific example.


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#13 Susan

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 08:51 AM

There's also the fact that while this provides a general guideline, especially for frequently used words, it honestly does not compare apples with apples (nor do the print resources or the "one-click" options)—i.e., we can't know for sure that the Hebrew text corresponds to the Vorlage of the Old Greek (which, in turn, may or may not be represented by the Greek text in the database).

 

I have just started using this workspace and find it very helpful. (Thank you!) However, it seems like we’re ignoring the valuable addition of Tov’s reconstructed LXX Vorlage by using the MT to define the search results. Is there any way to search that “reconstructed” Hebrew rather than the MT? (I’m pretty sure the answer is no - maybe this needs a feature request -  but I might be missing something here.) 

 

Using the MT gives information similar to what’s already available in HR (albeit in a very different format that has some unique advantages). It seems to me that this resource could offer something different if we were able to search the retroverted Hebrew instead. It would also be really cool if there were a way to search for all of the instances of a proposed dalet-resh interchange, for instance. Is anything like this possible using the searches we have?



#14 Helen Brown

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 04:30 AM

You can search the Hebrew in the MT-LXX but it is not tagged so you can define only string searches with wildcards. You simply change the menu in the box from Entry to Hebrew.


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#15 Tony Pyles

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 12:53 AM

Susan,

 

If you open MT-LXX and hit Home it should take you to the top of the resource, and you can see all of the different kinds of annotations used. These can be searched for in different fields. E.g., to search for the ד/ר exchanges, change the search field to SYMBOLS and put in "rd". Pretty cool!

 

Tony


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#16 Susan

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 01:36 AM

Wow, this opens up new worlds! It hadn’t even occurred to me that it may be searchable in so many different ways. (e.g.: "Presence of a relative pronoun in the Greek but not in the MT (for instance, if MT has an asyndetic relative clause).” - fascinating stuff.) Thanks!

 

(Where is “home”, by the way? I’m feeling blind. I was able to get to the list of annotations by following a link from one of them, but “home” sounds like a button I should know.)


Edited by Susan, 03 August 2015 - 01:56 AM.


#17 Tony Pyles

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 08:20 PM

I meant the home key on the keyboard. :-)

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#18 Abram K-J

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 08:32 PM

That key is virtually an artifact by now, Tony! ;)


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#19 Tony Pyles

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 09:09 PM

Yes, indeed, more's the pity!


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#20 Michael Miles

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Posted 11 August 2015 - 12:31 PM

I just purchased this awesome resource for my Bible study tool box.  The comments in this forum thread are very helpful.  Thanks!


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