Questions From A Beginner - Accordance 11 vs Logos 6 Original Language Study

[maverick777]

Good morning everyone,

 

I'm new to using serious Bible software.  I've been using Olive Tree for many years now and decided to invest into Logos 6 recently after many years of debating how I might make the best use of the tools available for self study.  At this time I'm also looking to study Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek.  As a result, I've decided to take a look at how Logos and Accordance compares in this specific area of original language study.

 

I've known about Accordance for many years, but didn't take a serious look because for a long time it was a Mac only program.  In my research both past and present, I see Accordance getting praise for use in original language study.  However, as I've done research in the last month, I've seen very little written about Accordance 11 compared to Logos 6 in this particular area.  Most of the comparisons I saw were for Accordance 10 and Logos 5.  I'm not sure how significantly the landscapes have changed if at all with these recent releases as it pertains to original language study.

 

I want to hear from users familiar with both programs to enlighten me about what they like and dislike about Accordance 11 and Logos 6 as it relates to original language study.  I'd like to see specific examples of how the tools are used and why one is considered superior to the other.  I know that Accordance is much faster as a whole and I know Logos 6 has a bigger library of resources, but that's not what I'm interested in discussing today.  

 

Today, I want to focus on just how these tools are used in the study of original languages and how they differ.  One thing I've already seen is that Accordance as the New English Translation of the Septuagint (NETS) and Logos 6 doesn't.  As a beginner to learning Biblical Hebrew, I'm not sure how big of an issue that is so I'm hear to listen to your input on these items.

 

I've posed these questions and had this discussion in the Logos forum as well, but was advised by an Accordance user to ask the question here to receive a balanced opinion on the subject.

 

I currently own Logos 6 Platinum with BDAG/HALOT and Hebrew audio.  For Accordance, I've been looking at the $299 original language bundle.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Edit:  One area that's kind of a negative for me with Accordance so far is it doesn't play nice with my Surface Pro 3.  It appears Accordance has issues scaling menu items correctly on high DPI screens.  I have various devices with Logos on it, but the Surface Pro 3 is my primary device since it's the most portable.  I'm hoping Accordance addresses this in the future.

Edited March 25, 2015 by maverick777

[Julia Falling]

Maverick –

 

The construct search alone is enough reason to seriously consider Accordance.

 

In the search below, I was looking for 'prepositional phrase sandwiches' = a prepositional phrase within another prepositional phrase.  Other than a construct search, I don't know how this could be done.  The search, could be refined to include participles & adjectives used substantively, but I set this up quickly and easily to demonstrate & find some examples.  Yes, there are some extra words highlighted, but they could probably be eliminated by tinkering with the search.

 

 

The construct search is unique to Accordance.  It works for Hebrew and English, too, though I've never set one up in English.

 

I have used Accordance for 11+ years, but I have never used Logos.  I am not a scholar.  I have no degree in a Biblical language.

 

For a comprehensive comparison, someone on the list who owns and uses both programs will have to help you.  The number of scholars who go to Accordance first for any original language work is a powerful endorsement (Dan Wallace and Bill Mounce among them).  There are reviews here.  There is a video from SBL/ETS from a year or so ago where a number of well-known scholars recommend Accordance, but I was unable to find it.

 

 

[R. Mansfield]

There is a video from SBL/ETS from a year or so ago where a number of well-known scholars recommend Accordance, but I was unable to find it.

 

Julie, I believe this may be the video to which you are referring. 

 

 

There is also an Accordance Endorsements playlist on YouTube as well. 

[Timothy Jenney]

Hi, Maverick!

 

Welcome to the Accordance forums.

 

There's a reason Accordance has been long known as"the" software for original language buffs, just as Logos was known for its extensive library of resources. The two programs have both outgrowth these old stereotypes, but significant differences remain. While I think I'll let our customers do the most talking about our software, I suggest you look for these themes: accuracy, speed, and sophistication.

 

Meanwhile, let me encourage you to take advantage of our extensive library of video podcasts, especially in the areas that most interest you: http://www.accordancebible.com/Podcasts-Index

[Julia Falling]

Julie, I believe this may be the video to which you are referring. 

 

 

Thanks, Rick.  That is the one I was looking for.  It didn't look the way I remembered (my memory is a bit flaky).

Edited March 25, 2015 by Julie Falling

[Julia Falling]

And download the demo and give it a test drive.

[R. Mansfield]

Maverick/Michael,

 

Note also Brian Davidson's recent post in the Logos forums where he said he has stopped using Logos for research on the Dead Sea Scrolls, and moved to Accordance for that kind of work, because the Hebrew text of the DSS does not display properly in Logos and nothing has been done to correct it. 

 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/88243/707192.aspx#707192

 

[maverick777]

Thanks for the advice given so far.  The construct search looks interesting.  Is the original language bundle a sufficient amount of tools?  I'm assuming it is given the name of he bundle.  What resources do long time users add to this for language study?

 

And download the demo and give it a test drive.

 

I do have the demo installed on my machines.  That's where I ran into the issue of scaling with my Surface Pro 3.  I'm still playing around with it to familiarize myself with the software.

 

Hi, Maverick!

 

Welcome to the Accordance forums.

 

There's a reason Accordance has been long known as"the" software for original language buffs, just as Logos was known for its extensive library of resources. The two programs have both outgrowth these old stereotypes, but significant differences remain. While I think I'll let our customers do the most talking about our software, I suggest you look for these themes: accuracy, speed, and sophistication.

 

Meanwhile, let me encourage you to take advantage of our extensive library of video podcasts, especially in the areas that most interest you: http://www.accordancebible.com/Podcasts-Index

 

Thanks for the link.  I'll look into the podcasts.  Do you know if the scaling issue on high DPI displays is something Accordance is going to fix anytime soon?  It's almost unusable on the Surface Pro 3 because the icons and menus are so small.

[Joel Brown]

Responding on the technical issue, we are well aware of and investigating the DPI problem, but I can't guarantee that it will be fixed within the next week or two, as its a pretty deep and tricky problem.  But, our best minds are working through it, so don't worry.  One thing you'll realize with Accordance is that we use the product as much as our users do, so if theres something really bothersome (like DPI scaling), it bothers us as well, and that ensures it will definitely get fixed eventually!

[Julia Falling]

Thanks for the advice given so far.  The construct search looks interesting.  Is the original language bundle a sufficient amount of tools?  I'm assuming it is given the name of he bundle.  What resources do long time users add to this for language study?

 

The Original Languages package is designed to get a student through the first year of Greek or Hebrew.  After that, you will want more resources.  (Many of the textbooks are available in Accordance, by the way.)  I have only a smattering of Hebrew, so someone who knows the language will have to help you with any recommended extras.  

 

If you decide to commit to Accordance, BDAG/HALOT are available as a bundle.  Since you already own a license in Logos, I think you can get a break on the price from Accordance.  Again, contact sales.

 

I have a couple of favorite resources I would recommend to a first year Greek student.  They're resources I still use after four years of formal study and continuing personal study.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Julie Falling

[maverick777]

The Original Languages package is designed to get a student through the first year of Greek or Hebrew.  After that, you will want more resources.  (Many of the textbooks are available in Accordance, by the way.)  I have only a smattering of Hebrew, so someone who knows the language will have to help you with any recommended extras.  

 

If you decide to commit to Accordance, BDAG/HALOT are available as a bundle.  Since you already own a license in Logos, I think you can get a break on the price from Accordance.  Again, contact sales.

 

I have a couple of favorite resources I would recommend to a first year Greek student.  They're resources I still use after four years of formal study and continuing personal study.

 

Thanks for the advice.  What are your favorite resources that you recommend to students?

[Julia Falling]

Thanks for the advice.  What are your favorite resources that you recommend to students?

 

For 2nd semester of 1st year Greek I would highly recommend Mounce's Analytical Lexicon for two reasons:  

 

1. It provides all the principle parts of the verbs (if that part occurs in the NT) right up front so you don't have to go wading through something like BDAG or LSJ to find them; 
2. It lists a bunch of forms that are easily confused. 

My second recommendation would be Mounce's Morphology of Biblical Greek.  You can find not only all the regular patterns, but also those words that are highly irregular with the declension (noun) or conjugation (verb).  

 

I still use both resources, though I use the lexicon mostly for making vocabulary flash cards at this point.

 

Someone else with have to help you with the Hebrew.  We have several 1st and 2nd year Hebrew students on the list.

[Brian W. Davidson]

Note also Brian Davidson's recent post in the Logos forums where he said he has stopped using Logos for research on the Dead Sea Scrolls …

 

 

And I am slowly but surely moving to Accordance for ALL texts and lexicons. Right now I'm doing all my reading, searching, and general reference of ancient texts in Accordance. I could write a book in answer to the original post in this thread, but I don't have time.

 

If you are not interested in a large digital library, go with Accordance. If you are interested in a large digital library, still consider owning Accordance for texts and lexicons, at least.

 

I now think Accordance's Original Language package is the best deal in Bible software.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Brian W. Davidson

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

I have plans to shoot a "Logos 6 vs Accordance 11" comparison screencast one day when I have a free moment. The end result will be that I'm not going to come out saying "one application is better than the other", but that both of them are different tools in my Bible study toolbox, and depending on the task, I choose a different app for different tasks. I'll then explain when I use Logos and when I use Accordance.

 

As for Biblical language studies, if you want to get serious about BIblical language studies, it's worth springing for Accordance. Logos has some interesting Biblical Language tools, but they're more geared for people who don't know the Biblical Languages and want to pick up the tidbits as they go along. Accordance is geared toward someone who really wants to immerse themselves in the Biblical languages with high quality texts (I've found their Biblical language texts a bit higher quality than Logos and more geared to what my professors are using in class), powerful searching (construct window, more "professional" level Biblical language searching, etc.), etc. 

 

I'd even recommend investing the extra money in Essential. You'll get Original Languages, plus the graphics bundle. The interactive atlas is a lot of fun when you want to explore Biblical places (it's more robust than the Logos 6 atlas), plus the PhotoGuide is way too much fun. I could spend way too much time in it. :-)

[Unix]

I also have the same softwares (Accordance 10 (I don't have the Original Languages Collection), Logos with the latest updates Original Languages Library version 4 (bought with 25 discount as a returning customer) Anglican 6 Now Silver level, OliveTree). The only significant module in the latter one is Encyclopedia of Ancient Christianity which I got for 50% off on the introductory sale of it. I've had Logos for ages and my usage of it has varied.

I'll list most of things I have leaving out one Philosophy introduction by Sproul and the Finnish Bibles.

 

The first thing I bought was UBS Translator's Handbook New Testament used in Accordance. Quite cheap. It's of use to me as I use the English Bible versions it refers to such as the 1971 2nd Edition RSV and the 2004 Good News Translation 3rd Edition UK-English (it refers to an older Edition of the American Edition of it).
I bought these used on a trade site:
A small version 8 Library (Lib8-S), NIV84, NIV 2011 with footnotes, and Calvins Commentaries (the latter would not be necessary for You and not much in the small version 8 Library). I also bought these used in a big swop from user of both forums:

BDAG
HALOT

Hebrew Masoretic and Septuagint Parallel (MT-LXX Parallel). Note that this is much more up-to-date than the Logos Edition.

LEH Septuagint Lexicon Second Edition (LEH-2)

Catholic Study Bible (CSB)

New American Bible, Revised Edition (NABRE) (I actually use this one for many parts of the Old Testament)

I bought this new with 10% off full-time student discount:
Upgrade from NIV (2011) to NIV (2011) with Enhanced GK Numbers and Phrase Tagging (NIV11-GKEupNIV11) $35.91. Logos doesn't carry this at all, it's from 2015.

 

I've bought these directly from Accordance:

Comprehensive Bible Cross References. reg. price. This doesn't require any Greek knowledge.
New English Translation of the Septuagint. reg. price.
Revised English Bible. reg. price. This is an excellent Bible that most users really should add.
Anchor Yale Bible Commentaries: New Testament (27 volumes). $449.99 w/ the 1971 Mt volume. Excellent purchase.
Hermeneia OT Commentary Set (21 Volumes) (HermeneiaOT21 Set) $279.00. I didn't buy the NT because Logos offers more Fortress Press volumes with their NT set: namely Continental Commentaries of which Galatians is awesome - the best.

New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis (NIDNTTE). This is for about fourth semester Greek 50% of full-time pace, that's probably faster pace than in seminaries in the U.S.
IVP Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels (2nd Edition) (IVP-Jesus & Gospels 2). $35.90
 

I bought these directly from Accordance over the internet in Turkey while there was a 20% off sale exactly a year ago:
Comfort: New Testament Text and Translation Commentary (Comfort Text Commentary) I think it's still in pre-pub in Logos.
Pillar NTC 2 Peter and Jude (Peter H. Davids) (PNTC-2Peter & Jude). Probably the best commentary on Jude although it's now at least a decade old.
Revised Standard Version with Apocrypha (RSV). I use this a lot for the NT, especially in Logos: https://www.logos.com/product/31445/reverse-interlinear-of-rsv-new-testament. For Sirach I use the NRSV (in Logos I have it with the Reverse Interlinear).
The Torah: A Modern Commentary (Torah Modern Commentary). This is definitely the best English Gn version, and the Pentateuch commentary is also outstanding.

And these recently during 20% off sale:
Biblical DSS Manuscripts Variants (DSSB Variants)
LXX Göttingen with Apparatus - The Twelve (LXXG-12)
LXX Göttingen with Apparatus - Jeremiah (LXXG-JER)

I bought these directly from Accordance with 15% off discount:
Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia with Apparatus and tagging (BHS-T)
Greek Septuagint (Rahlfs) revised and tagged (LXX1)
New Interpreter's Bible 12-Volume Commentary (NIB-12volume). Perhaps it wouldn't help You a lot with Original Languages at least not on a very tecnical level.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, Enhanced (Treasury Enhanced) free with purchase of items for $100 or more.


I have:

Sirach-Canonical

BENSIRA-C: $49.90
and
LXXG-Sirach

LXXG-SIR: $79.90

... on my Wish List and I bought myself a gift card that covers them if there's a 20% off sale sometime in the future.

Next I'll list clear advantages with Accordance besides what others have mentioned:
Much better customer service. Logos' customer service used to be decent meaning they corrected errors fairly quickly - nowadays it however takes 1½-2 months to correct something when they have made a mistake, and Logos accounting and customer service are now very very reluctant to give any compensation and it doesn't help much being a good customer.
Much less aggressive marketing.
Less risk You'll spend too much. If You are concerned this eventually adds up to a lot of $ if You minimize Your Logos purchases.
Better easier and more reliable language tools.
Menus for constructing commands instead of command-line interface like in Logos/Verbum/Noet.

Consumes less battery on the laptop. If You use Logos, I would recommend version 5 (can access resources, just some features missing) or 3 (can't access books created since 2013) in order to lenghten battery life.
And on top of all that Accordance has established a better custom of upgrade pricing offers. Logos on the other hand always charges the same from all their customers for enhanced or new Editions, sometimes they will add some functionality cheap though not adding actual content or actual revisions.

 

Version 11 of Accordance has fewer bugs than the latest iteration of version 10.

 

There's hope that Accordance will release the 1996 Edition of LSJ.

 

typos edited and a couple of further specifications

Edited April 10, 2015 by Unix

[Daniel R]

*

Edited April 11, 2015 by Daniel R

[Abram K-J]

I still don't know what use folks have for syntax methods from the 1950's.

 

Though you have to admit those 1st century syntax methods are still pretty relevant....

[Daniel R]

*

Edited April 11, 2015 by Daniel R

[Yaakov Jannis]

Daniel R,

 

As a new Accordance user, I find your summaries helpful. I too was baffled to see generative linguistics (Principles and Parameters from what I can gather) as the driving theory of their syntax database, especially when they claim (on the Facebook page) that it is "cutting edge." Chomsky was good for his time, but cutting edge are not the words that come to my in terms of the various step-child theories in allegiance to him.

 

With that being said, I think the recent article in the Encyclopedia of Hebrew Language (by Brill "Computational Information Systems: Biblical Hebrew") explains the issues in more detail. Also, the WIVU database is now online here: http://shebanq.ancient-data.org

 

Thanks for the post; these sort of discussions are helping me learn whether I want to invest more into Accordance. My sense is that I wish I could somehow mix Logos (its notes, syncing, and user based features) with Accordance (its speed and morphological searches). Perhaps the two companies should merge for the benefits of researchers and users.

[Λύχνις Δαν]

With that being said, I think the recent article in the Encyclopedia of Hebrew Language (by Brill "Computational Information Systems: Biblical Hebrew") explains the issues in more detail. Also, the WIVU database is now online here: http://shebanq.ancient-data.org

 

Interesting link. Thx D.

[Timothy Jenney]

If Accordance got WIVU that would start to change things.

 

I am pleased to announce that we are currently finalizing the details of an agreement to do just that.

[Michael J. Bolesta]

WIVU?

[Daniel R]

*

Edited April 11, 2015 by Daniel R

[Timothy Jenney]

Daniel,

 

I totally agree.  That is why Accordance has long included the ability to make visual diagrams (for flow charts, sentence diagramming, and syntactical analysis) in Accordance. The bulk of our original users (scholars) did just that. When we finally started making syntax trees and diagrams available, we intended that people would use these sorts of databases to check their own work—not to do their thinking for them.

 

Alas, we are all under too much pressure these days. Some who need the information lack the skill to build them; others lack the time.

 

We are working on better ways to allow users to save and integrate their own work into Accordance, but we're not ready to release any details yet.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Timothy Jenney

[Daniel R]

Hey I think we were thinking the same thing at the same time. JINX! You owe me a coke.