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Creating vocabulary lists for specific texts

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#1 Keith Hill

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 07:14 AM

Hi,

 

I'm trying to create a vocab list for words that occur in Gen 37, with a frequency of 1-99 times in the whole OT. Is anyone able to walk me through the process?

 

Thanks,

Keith



#2 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 08:04 AM

Hi, Keith!

 

Try this: [COUNT 1-99] <AND> [RANGE Gen 37]

 

Enjoy!


Edited by Timothy Jenney, 01 June 2015 - 08:05 AM.

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#3 Fabian

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 08:25 AM

Hello Tim

 

Why not a search for [COUNT 1-99]  Select Gen-Mal and then a new Tab with [HITS] <and> [Range Gen 37]?

 

With your solution I have in my Bible 183 hits and the other 503 hits.

 

Because he wrote "that occur the whole OT"

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


Greetings

Fabian

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bugs, I describe.

PLEASE!
Bring more international Bibles to the store,
fix my reported bugs, even the old ones which never was addressed,
develop my feature requests, the new once and the once I made years ago,
in nearer future.

#4 Keith Hill

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 02:39 PM

Thanks Fabian,

That'll do it.



#5 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 02:44 PM

I agree. I was trying to do it all on a single screen, as I was on my iPhone.


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#6 Fabian

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 02:47 PM

Hello Tim

 

Thank, 'cause I was even not really sure if my solution is right.

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

 

To Keith, It was nice to help you. I'm in the learning process too...


Greetings

Fabian

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bugs, I describe.

PLEASE!
Bring more international Bibles to the store,
fix my reported bugs, even the old ones which never was addressed,
develop my feature requests, the new once and the once I made years ago,
in nearer future.

#7 Ken Simpson

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 06:52 AM

Hi maybe I am missing something here, but using the HMT-W4, both the methodologies give the same results (108 hits). They perform the same function.

 

The COUNT 1-99 will always count the entire search text, unless it is constrained by a custom range (not a RANGE command). The RANGE command then just displays the results from the pericope specified in the RANGE command.

 

That is exactly what the more complex Fabian system does. They are only not equivalent when the search text  (in this case) is not just the OT - e.g. if we were doing an English or other language text.


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#8 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 08:08 AM

I was going to post this last night and then my Mac played up for a bit. Anyhow here it is.

 

Ok so I wanted to suggest a way to do this with just a single tab. And it works in Greek lemma searches just fine. But if you go to an English text you get different numbers.

 

So the plot is to combine both of Fabian's tabs into one. Set a range in the Search Conditions to the OT. And use the combined search string of "[COUNT 1-99] <AND> [RANGE Gen 37]".

 

This works fine for Greek (LXX) and gives the same answer as the two tab method. It is also faster. Incidentally the search ranges defined in the search ranges file on the exchange are such that the OT range when run against Rahlfs does not include the entirety of Rahlfs. I just mention this so it's clear that the search condition range is having an impact in this test.

 

BUT .... If you try this with the ESVS you get very different results. I have not yet been able to explain it. I initially thought it was because you cannot do a lemma search in English but I'm searching the same English translation in both cases. The one tab solution finds 163 flex hits, the two tab 347.

 

 

Any ideas why this is ?

 

thx

D
 


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

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#9 Fabian

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 08:46 AM

To clarify "in my Bible" was the Elberfelder-LEM. Also a text like the ESVS which Daniel also tested, and had different results. 

 

Greetings

 

Fabian


Greetings

Fabian

ATTENTION: My bug reports are all with the GERMAN INTERFACE and with the EUROPEAN NOTATION! It can be the English interface has no bugs, I describe.

PLEASE!
Bring more international Bibles to the store,
fix my reported bugs, even the old ones which never was addressed,
develop my feature requests, the new once and the once I made years ago,
in nearer future.

#10 Ken Simpson

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 01:08 AM

Ahh - OK. Thanks.

 

My assumption was that if we wanted a vocab list (see OP) we wanted an OL text.

 

BTW - Daniel - no image attachment there 


Edited by Ken Simpson, 03 June 2015 - 01:09 AM.

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#11 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 02:10 AM

I hate it when I do that. My Mac needed a sudden reboot in the middle of the prepped post and I forgot to reattach the image. Here it is.

 

Attached File  differentCounts.jpg   217.65KB   0 downloads

 

Thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/


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#12 Ken Simpson

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 04:34 PM

It’s very interesting, and I am not sure what’s going on here, but the two step process finds many terms wit “no key number” - I haven’t had enough time to see if that explains all the differences. But the interesting question is why is the single step process is not picking up the “no key number”.

 

I think it’s a question beyond my pay-grade...


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#13 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 05:03 PM

There are other possibilities as well. Sometimes translators will break up very long sentences. In those cases, they will often substitute a proper name (or a noun) for a pronoun in order to make its antecedent clear. The proper name (or noun) can get tagged with the key number for the original language word, rather than the pronoun. That means that those doing word counts in the original language text will get one more pronoun and one less proper name/noun than those vs. doing counts in the translation.

 

There are other kinds of instances, but I hope this example will help explain why both texts may be perfectly tagged, but the word counts are different.


Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
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#14 Ken Simpson

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 05:58 PM

Hi Tim, thanks.

But the text is exactly the same (ESVS in this case) it’s just a different way of doing the searches - one a single step approach and the other a two-step. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to me.


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#15 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 06:03 PM

Ken beat me to it.

That's the thing that's puzzling. Clearly the two approaches to the search have different outcomes with non-OL texts.

 

Thx

D


Edited by Daniel Semler, 03 June 2015 - 06:03 PM.

Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/


Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
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#16 Timothy Jenney

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 09:35 AM

I actually wasn't addressing the two different search with a translated text. I was trying to explain a previous question: the differences that arise between a lemma search of an OL text and a key number search in a tagged translation.


Blessings,
"Dr. J"

Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
"Lighting the Lamp" Host and Producer
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iMac: Late 2014 27" 5k display, 4.0 GHz quad core i7, 24 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD, AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096 MB, macOS Sierra 10.13
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#17 Joel Brown

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 11:45 AM

To put it simply, a COUNT search is case sensitive, while a HITS search is not.  So, if you do [COUNT 1] [RANGE gen], you'll get all exact forms that occur just once in the Bible, as they are used in Genesis.  If you do [COUNT 1] in one tab, then [HITS Tab1] [RANGE Gen], you'll get all case variants of the exact forms found in the bible, as they are used in Genesis.

 

A good, clear example of this can be shown in the HCSB.  In a normal COUNT 1 search, 'GOD' (in all caps) is a result in Acts 17:23.  However, when you take the hits of that search, it will now try to find all times God is used, regardless  of case, which adds in thousands of other uses, such as in Genesis 1:1.

 

I hope this helps clarify!


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#18 דָנִיאֶל

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 11:47 AM

Ah. So I need to test an absorb this but, does this mean that the reason we get the same results in OL texts is that there is no case variation ?

 

thx

D


Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua
ἡ μόνη ἀγαθὴ γλῶσσα γλῶσσα νεκρὰ ἐστιν
lišanu ēdēnitu damqitu lišanu mītu

"Du stammst vom Herrn Adam und der Herrin Eva ab", sagte Aslan. "Und das ist zugleich Ehre genug, um das Häupt des ärmsten Bettlers zu erheben, und genug, um die Schultern des größten Kaisers auf Erden zu beugen. Sei zufrieden." Aslan, Die Chroniken von Narnia, Prinz Kaspian von Narnia. CS Lewis. Übersetzt von Wolfgang Holbein und Christian Rendel.

Accordance Syntax Search For Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics : https://github.com/4...WallaceInSyntax

Accordance Crib Sheets: http://47rooks.com/l...ch-crib-sheets/


Accordance Configurations :

Mac : 2009 27" iMac
12GB RAM

Windows : MSI GE72 7RE Apache Pro laptop
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Android : Samsung Note III 5.0, Samsung Tab S3 7.0 and Lenovo TAB4 8" 7.1

#19 Joel Brown

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 03:49 PM

Basically, yes.  For tagged texts, Accordance uses the proper lemma and inflected forms when doing COUNT and HITS, which are all case insensitive, so the results are consistent.  For keyed or untagged texts, all it has is the data in the text itself (and maybe key numbers and other items, of course), so words of different case are considered differently.


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By night: Freelance Trombonist


#20 Ken Simpson

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 04:45 PM

OK - learning all the time. Thanks Joel.

 

Sorry Tim, I misunderstood what you were addressing. Blessings brother.


Edited by Ken Simpson, 04 June 2015 - 04:45 PM.

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Ken
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