Inconsistent Hebrew copy and paste

[Michel Gilbert]

Hi,

 

 

I was experimenting with copying and pasting within Acc in OS X, and sometimes the Hebrew does not display correctly. Here is a copy and paste of part of נבל in the cdch, with dageshes in the ל :

 

 

Then I picked another word in this verse with a ל in it: this time there are no dageshes in any ל, but there is one in the ת :

 

 

 

It is incredibly frustrating that every time I try to use the program for actual editing, I find a bug. I can't imagine that any OT/HB scholar uses the notes for actual work.

 

I'm honestly trying not to write something that I might regret later.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

[Susan]

That is very strange! I’ve had copy/paste problems with Hebrew characters from Accordance, but never dageshes showing up out of nowhere like that. For what it’s worth, I went to that entry in CDCH and pasted it into a user note and wasn’t able to reproduce the problem.  

 

Reneging on the “out of nowhere” comment.....in your example it looks to be the semicolons in CDCH turning into dageshes (with a RTL/LTR flip) in the paste, right? (No idea why/how, but the dagesh seems to show up where it doesn’t belong on the other end of a word when the semicolon disappears.)

Edited September 5, 2015 by Susan

[Λύχνις Δαν]

I was able to repro. this. But curiously from the same copy I was able to paste cleanly into LibreOffice - no additional dageshes. And yes Susan good eyes ! you are right about the semi-colons. They disappear in the in the User Note case but are preserved in LO. And if you just select the word without the following semi-colon it pastes into UN without an additional dagesh.

 

Thx

D

[Michel Gilbert]

That is very strange! I’ve had copy/paste problems with Hebrew characters from Accordance, but never dageshes showing up out of nowhere like that. For what it’s worth, I went to that entry in CDCH and pasted it into a user note and wasn’t able to reproduce the problem.  

 

Reneging on the “out of nowhere” comment.....in your example it looks to be the semicolons in CDCH turning into dageshes (with a RTL/LTR flip) in the paste, right? (No idea why/how, but the dagesh seems to show up where it doesn’t belong on the other end of a word when the semicolon disappears.)

 

 

Hi Susan,

 

Thanks for trying to reproduce, but do you have 10.6.8 (Snow Leopard) like I do?

 

Like you, I have had copy and paste problems with Hebrew, in Acc for Windows for two years now. I was experimenting with OS X to see if the same problems occur. It is still my hope that I can use the syntax database and the Acc editor for small expectations editing, like typing in Unicode Hebrew (they did fix that), and copying and pasting within the program before I copy and paste up my workflow chain. But, if there is no consistency copying and pasting, I can't even do that. It is terrible for a scholar to have to wonder if something will work every time he/she uses it. I'm afraid of losing work and time.

 

Regarding how frustrated I am. Bug reporting is becoming a part of my regular workflow – I actually expect to have to set aside time for it. Just as most members of this Forum have had great experiences with their Macs, but a few have had terrible experiences, e.g., see Mark's post at

http://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/16516-computer-for-accordance/?do=findComment&comment=80275 , most have had a great experience with Acc (in English or Greek, or other ltr languages), but I have had a terrible experience with Acc. I've been computing since Dec 1988, and without a doubt, Acc has been the buggiest program I've ever used. I send the bug reports because I depend on it as much as anyone else. And I'm only asking for the Unicode compliance in version 11 that Acc advertised.

 

On that note, I don't know if semi-colons are the problem. I get the feeling that Acc used algorithms and macros to create Unicode texts. If that is the case, I know from experience that it is easy to change a character more than once in a complicated macro.

 

Thanks again.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

I was able to repro. this. But curiously from the same copy I was able to paste cleanly into LibreOffice - no additional dageshes. And yes Susan good eyes ! you are right about the semi-colons. They disappear in the in the User Note case but are preserved in LO. And if you just select the word without the following semi-colon it pastes into UN without an additional dagesh.

 

Thx

D

 

Thanks Daniel.

 

Regards

[Susan]

Hi Susan,

 

Thanks for trying to reproduce, but do you have 10.6.8 (Snow Leopard) like I do?

 

 

Nope, I’m using OS X 10.10. I guess that’s why.

 

I haven’t found Accordance bugs especially more troubling than other software, and for me the power of the search with lightening-fast results (well, excluding syntax searches) outweighs any bug-associated irritations, but it seems like I’m using it for different purposes than you are, and I can see why it might be frustrating. (Actually, I’ll admit I’ve never found an interface where mixed RTL/LTR text isn’t at least a tiny bit frustrating.) I’ve also not been around for nearly so long. Accordance staff have been pretty responsive since I’ve been here.

[Joel Brown]

Michel, I am again very sorry for your experienced frustrations with Accordance.  The transition to Unicode is an extremely painful one - it certainly isn't the amazing end solution many people consider it to be.  We are very regularly working on all of the issues reported, and 11.0.8 should prove to be much smoother.  It is almost ready for release, and it includes fixes for many of the issues you have been reporting.  We can't promise bug-free software, but we can promise to work hard to fix these issues as best we can, so you are able to focus on your research.

 

In this particular case, thank you for finding the bug. It appears that the semicolon included in Concise DCH is getting confused during Unicode conversion, turning into a dagesh afterwards.  I'm very glad you found this before 11.0.8 is released, so the fix can be included in 11.0.8.

 

Thank you again for your bug reports, and I hope that as we continue to move forward with the Unicode transition, it will become more and more consistent, so you become less worried about the program, and more on your work.

[Joel Brown]

Just getting back to you - this bug is now fixed, and everything pastes properly in 11.0.8.

[Michel Gilbert]

I’ve never found an interface where mixed RTL/LTR text isn’t at least a tiny bit frustrating

 

 

 

Hi Susan,

 

I assume you mean in the Mac world. The reason I always chose PC over Mac was that rtl issues were resolved with Office 2003 and any other Unicode program since. Now that I'm migrating to Mac, I know that I'll have some issues again with rtl. My post at http://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/16163-unicode-hebrew-in-mac-versions-of-accordance-11-scrivener-2-and-word-2011/?hl=%2Bpasting+%2Bhebrew was really about the one issue that has always prevented me from switching. Recent events with W10 are the last straw for me though. I'm switching now. And, I agree with Dr. Holmstedt that Libre Office will be a good solution for me.

 

On another note, thank you for alerting Acc to the semi-colon.

 

 

 

 

 it [unicode] certainly isn't the amazing end solution many people consider it to be

 

 

Hi Joel,

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I've used many programs pre and post Unicode, including most notably Microsoft Word and Bar Ilan Responsa, and I would not want to go back to the pre-Unicode days. It used to be an absolute nightmare to use proprietary fonts and keyboard layouts for every program. I remember having a chart of ten-plus keyboard layouts for the Hebrew consonants alone – in Lotus, WordPerfect, Word, Multi-Lingual Scholar, Gramcord, the Israeli Keyboard for Bar Ilan, the Ezra-SIL keyboard, and other advertised “system-wide” keyboards that I tried. To type in Hebrew I'd consult the chart, and then cut and paste and change the font for every bit of Hebrew that came from a different program. Needless to say, these kinds of shared experiences/frustrations across many languages gave impetus to the whole Unicode idea in the first place. I am very grateful that Acc is moving to Unicode. And, my humble opinion is that Acc would jeopardize its future if it didn't make the transition to Unicode. If you don't do it, someone else will.

 

 

We can't promise bug-free software, but we can promise to work hard to fix these issues as best we can, so you are able to focus on your research.

 

 

I am very grateful for your efforts. And I am humbled by your gracious response.

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

 

Michel