Λύχνις Δαν Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Hi ya, Acc 11.0.7 Win 7 SP1 As everyone now probably knows I'm learning to type Hebrew. So I tried Ezra SIL keyboard in a User Note. Two keys in this mapping produce shin, j producing שׁ and f producing שׂ and finally S producing ש . Now in a User Note all these render without pointing. Setting the flag to use the Israeli keyboard in the prefs makes no difference but I'm not sure it should or not. The rest of the mapping seems basically ok for the Normal (unshifted) state. Final forms seem ok. ? renders jumping to the right hand end of the text which seems incorrect. Compound hataf-* points look fine. More esoteric than that I haven't tried. Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Hi Daniel, It works for me, but I use Keyman Desktop 8 to associate the Ezra kbd with the Hebrew Language in the Ctrl Panel. When the Ezra font came out, SIL added a link to the Tavultesoft Keyman Ezra keyboard. It was free then, and now Keyman 9 is free, limit of two keyboards. In Keyman 9 it is a two step process - choose HE, then the Ezra keyboard. Keyman 8 isn't free, but it is a one step process in it - you can configure the Ezra kbd to associate with HE, so when you press HE in the language bar you get the Ezra keyboard automatically. I've been using Keyman so long I don't even know how to use the Ezra kbd when Keyman is turned off. Regards, Michel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Keyman is Windows only, but I just checked and שׂשׁש work with the Ezra kbd in Acc for Mac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Hi Michel, I'm not sure if I know what you mean by "associate the Ezra kbd with the Hebrew Language in the Ctrl Panel". Here's what I've done. In Win 7 I have set up a keyboard shortcut (under Region and Language -> Text Services and Input Languages) to select Hebrew with the SIL keyboard. I have other keyboards - modern Israeli, and Tyndale House. When I hit ctrl-5 (my shortcut) the language bar shows HE and Biblical Hebrew (SIL). And that seems good enough for LibreOffice. You're on Win 8 though aren't you ? and using a different keyboard switching technique .... not sure what's up. I see it does work on Mac though. Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Hi Daniel, I am using W8.1 Pro. The Ezra kbd doesn't show up in the Ctrl Panel, unless it is the one listed as unavailable input method. Here is a screenshot of associating keyboards: I used to have Keyman 9 on my Windows touch computer, but not anymore (someone spilled on the kbd, motherboard fried, and I can't access the BIOS). But I remember Keyman configured a bit differently; it had its own icon on the taskbar next to the Language Bar and I'd have to pick HE and their א icon to get Hebrew with the Ezra SIL keyboard. Keyman 8 is about $23 for two keyboards; Keyman 9 is free for two. Regards, Michel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Hi again, You would think that your way would work, but based on my experience with Acc and BW, they seem to override or ignore Windows language and keyboard settings. They seem to associate HE with either the Hebrew QWERTY or Israeli kbd (hence the שׂשׁ problems that have occurred, not only with User Notes, but with search boxes also). Keyman tricks Windows Acc and BW into thinking you are using their keyboard when in fact you are using another. I know from reading some of your posts that you have programming gifts, and you might be able to figure it out on your own. But, Keyman is free and it works. Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) Hey Michel, Hmmm.... ok so I tried one or two things but no good with just plain Windows setups. Downloaded the freebie Keyman. I selected the Ancient Hebrew - comes with something called Galaxie Hebrew. The layout is different. But the vowel points on shin and sin are coming up. They are on the v and c keys respectively rather than j and f. But now curiously with Keyman installed my Hebrew SIL keyboard is providing the pointing on j anf f. Very bizarre. And I can assign hotkeys using the Win 7 Text and Language Settings and they work. So I appear to have an unused Keyman that is in fact having an affect. No idea what is going on but it works. The only thing I appear not to be able to do is put a hotkey for Semitic Transliteration keyboard. I can live without it for now. If I do it blows away the other hotkeys for the the other keyboards. This is probably some Win 7 bug. But this is workable. Άγαλλιάομαι ! Well I'm pleased at any rate. I'll see how it goes. So in summary for any hapless soul striking this : 1. Get on win 7 - (or if you cannot avoid it above) 2. Install the SBL SIL Hebrew (there is a Tyro one there too, but use the SIL one. http://www.sbl-site.org/educational/BiblicalFonts_SBLHebrew.aspxand it's called SBL Hebrew keyboard Driver, SIL Layout (Windows) 3. Then hope that Keyman still have a freebie desktop - I got Keyman Desktop 9.0 Free. Download and install it. I selected the Ancient Hebrew variant but I doubt it really matters. 4. Go to the Language Bar and go to Settings to the Advanced Key Settings and set up your shortcuts. This works in LibreOffice, Accordance User Notes and Firefox and presumably other things. ֺOne remaining small issue is typing in the Search box for a Hebrew text in Accordance. That doesn't show the pointing for these keys. I tried with and without the preference for the Israeli keyboard set. For now I can likely live with that. Do you see that ? Wow that was simple ! I don't know why the Mac people think Windows is so hard Michel thanx for all your help. Thx D Edited September 10, 2015 by Daniel Semler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) Hi Daniel, I don't really understand what's going on either, but I think you've complicated things when they don't need to be. And, I shudder to think I've only recommended a "workable" solution for you. Keyman Desktop has six Hebrew keyboards. Since one of them is the Ezra SIL keyboard, I'm not sure why you picked the Galaxie one. You're welcome to choose Galaxie, but you won't get the benefits of the Ezra kbd (unless I've misunderstood - I'm not sure if you're using the Ezra mapping or not). Besides the benefits I've already mentioned, another one is one keystroke for שׂ and שׁ . Why is that such a benefit? Because שׁ is one of the most used consonants in the Hebrew alphabet. שׂ and שׁ are actually two Unicode codes each: 05E9 = ש followed by either a shin dot = 05C1 or a sin dot = 05C2 ; these values are the same whether you enter them with the Ezra SIL keyboard, the Hebrew Qwerty one, or any other one. But the Ezra keyboard enters them both with one keystroke. The שׁ/שׂ [sin/shin] problem in the Go to box isn't caused by the keyboard one uses. Since there are two parts to these Unicode letters, Acc goes to the first 05E9 = ש whether you enter שׂ or שׁ in the box. I was offered the beta release of 11.0.8 yesterday that was supposed to fix this bug among others. But it is only fixed in OSX, not in Windows. I wrote Helen about it and she is forwarding the information. In fact, I under-reported the problem. Whenever you press שׁ [shin] in any part of a word, you will be directed to the first available שׂ [sin] - e.g., search for אֲשֶׁר [with a shin], and you'll get אֲשַׂראֵל [with a sin] in the box after you enter שׁ [shin]. [Edit: it's even hard to describe this problem - the sin and shin dots are not showing up in this editor, so I went back and wrote sin and shin in brackets.] If anyone wants the Ezra SIL kbd and font in Windows in under five minutes, all you have to do is: 1. Ignore the SBL site. 2. Download Keyman Desktop 9 for free at http://keyman.com/desktop/download.php . 3. Install it (it installs the keyboard and font), open Configuration > Keyboard Layouts > Download keyboard , scroll down to Hebrew, Ancient, click Search, and choose the Ezra SIL keyboard. 4, Open the Ezra SIL keyboard font documentation. 5. Start typing Hebrew. Daniel, you could still download the Keyman Ezra SIL kbd and delete the Galaxie one. Or, keep Galaxie or experiment with both. But, when you enter the v and c keys, you are simply adding the sin and shin dots as an extra step in the Galaxie keyboard. I know that writing on a Forum isn't the best form of communication, and that we would understand each other better in person, listening and asking questions. So I hope I haven't misunderstood you entirely. And on your part, be assured that I only want to help. Best regards, Michel Edited September 10, 2015 by Michel Gilbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 Ah ok - the key bit is ignore the SBL site. I didn't get that earlier. Regarding Keyman I didn't really choose Galaxie. I chose Ancient Hebrew and that's what it came with. I now understand what you've been suggesting. I'll take a look at it again. Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I do recommend the SBL site for the Ezra SIL keyboard for OSX. But that site isn't the best place to go for the Ezra SIL keyboard in Windows - Keyman's site is much better. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Ok so this seriously didn't work for me. I may not have cleaned up adequately before installing the Keyman version of Ezra SIL but I followed the directions they gave. But I ended up with some seriously odd shift states in the keyboard mapping which left me unable to type base characters after typing vowel points on an aleph. I uninstalled Keyman and got back to where I had been. Now I'll try to clean up again and reboot properly and then try again. More later. Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Hi Daniel, I'm sorry to hear that. I can only offer a few suggestions. To clean up you should also delete all Hebrew keyboards in the Ctrl Panel, maybe even the Hebrew language, and start over from scratch. I did this after I tried Keyman 9 Pro and reverted back to Keyman 8. I'd also try the Keyman 8 trial version to see if it works. It really is worth $23.99 if it works for you. It's also the version I'm using and that works in all my Windows programs. Btw, Keyman 6, 7, 8, and 9 all worked all the time for me in XP, Vista, 7, 8.1 and 10. Otherwise, with so many hardware/software combinations in the Windows world sometimes it takes a lot of trial and error to find what works, and maybe your workable solution is the best one for your unique Windows box. I'm going to download LO tonight and test if Keyman 8 works in it. Until then, Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Oooops - you're gonna love this - tried 8 and had the same issue but the GUI had more information in a place I could see it very clearly. Turns out the hotkey Keyman configured to turn itself off was Alt-Shift-o which oddly happens to the keystroke that produces ֳ !! Changed that and it worked. Ok - another round of uninstall/reinstall to go back to 9 and check out what's what. Ok that wasn't it. It works in 8 but 9 is just not working for me. First it seems I cannot alter the hotkey, but even if I'm not hitting that key combination it's jumping to some weird state. So it would appear that I should use 8.0 or use Windows native stuff and tolerate the lack of proper sin-shin in search boxes. Actually I don't get the properly pointed shin-sin with Keyman 8 in search boxes on Acc. Thx D Edited September 11, 2015 by Daniel Semler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Hi, I just downloaded LO 5, and Keyman 8 works perfectly. [Edit: ץ works too !] I'll help you for as long as you want to try. Regards, Michel Edited September 11, 2015 by Michel Gilbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Alt-Shift-o . . . a; e; and o; all work for me in LO in Win 8.1 with Keyman 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 That's interesting. I am on 4.4.5.2 which is the latest 4. I didn't realize 5 was out because the update check doesn't go across major versions I guess. The simpler a; style would be nice, but LO works ok. Its Acc where search boxes and UN don't get the proper pointing on sin and shin. I get them in User Notes if keyman is installed but not in the search boxes. Do they point ok for you in Acc text search boxes with Keyman ? Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Hi, No they don't (in 11.0.7 ff; they used to). But, to delete a sin or shin I entered I have to press backspace twice - the first backspace appears to do nothing, but must be deleting a sin or shin dot; the second backspace erases it. I informed Helen about this last night. Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 I hadn't noticed the double backspace but I see it too. So yep that sounds like a bug. I suspect this thing in User Notes is too, the Keyman w/a notwithstanding. Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 a; e; and o; all work for me in LO in Win 8.1 with Keyman 8 Interesting - how do you get a holem ? For me in the default (unshifted state) SIL mapping that is produced by o. This is the SBL SIL mapping. Is the Keyman one for slightly different ? The keyboard from SBL is 2008 : Keyboard Drivers (.zip files, updated 4/21/2008) SBL Hebrew keyboard Driver, SIL Layout (Windows) Perhaps there have been updates made. I don't have the source mapping files so I cannot check. Thx D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 from my android holem is o o; in combo gives the hatef vowel got to go to sleep now;till tomorrow, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Hi Daniel, You can compare the map at http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/downloads/keyboards/search.php?Search=iso:l:heb&Submit=1 , open up Ezra SIL 2.4 Unicode > View Documentation. I've used the kbd for 15 years and I don't think the mapping ever changed. The Ezra SIL font/Keyman kbd combo worked perfectly since XP Office in 2001. I've said Microsoft solved the rtl issue in Office 2003 because there was a problem with the holem in Unicode Times New Roman that they fixed in 2003. That's the only issue I know of that could have affected the mapping, either the Unicode value and/or perhaps the kbd map. I don't know how they fixed that. But, since the Ezra SIL font did not have the holem issue, and it was a beautiful font, the stage was set for it to become the standard non-proprietary font. That early momentum propelled it to the front. Like you said, "Better for me to get used to a mapping people who really do know the language have built." The Ezra mapping was done by someone or a team who knew Hebrew well (probably in consultation with SIL staff, whose expertise was linguistics!). Those who know Hebrew well recognize the benefits of the mapping, some of which I've mentioned. I started first year Hebrew at TEDS 30 years ago in the Fall 1985 semester. For the first 15 years after that I used proprietary non-Unicode fonts and keyboards, which turned out to be a bit of a nightmare compared to the following 15 years with non-proprietary Unicode fonts and system wide keyboards. The Ezra kbd has saved me countless keystrokes and headaches, and has real teaching benefits. Btw, I also like the combinations in the Galatia SIL Greek kbd - th for θ , ph for φ , and ps for ψ . But since I'm limited to two kbds in Keyman, I haven't use it in a while. Regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Λύχνις Δαν Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 This actually raises another question that has been kicking around in my head. What exactly is the Ezra SIL keyboard or mapping or what have you ? Is it a font and keyboard map combination ? Is it a Unicode compliant keyboard mapping ? Is it a font ? On the SIL site, in the link I paste above, it's billed as a keyboard mapping but there is no mention of Ezra. I assume Ezra is a font name and of course it is. But here's the thing, if the keyboard emits Unicode compliant codes and the font recognises them and composites in a standard manner (and there are no bugs) then a properly compliant keyboard and font should just work. I shouldn't have to have a specially matched pair. I have read enough on Unicode to know that there are many gotchas and that it's not a walk in the park to handle all cases properly, though I would have thought library developers would appeared - probably they have. I need to look at the keyboard mapping/font boundary in Unicode when I get a minute. I suspect it will take longer than a minute. Oh well. ThxD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Gilbert Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Hi Daniel, I'm no expert, but if I were interviewed as a witness to those exciting times, I'd say that SIL developed the Ezra Unicode font, mapped to the Hebrew - Unicode Consortium values. Then they contracted out the keyboard to Tavultesoft, with the kbd map already done. When I first downloaded the font, they had a link for the Keyman Keyboard. My guess is that Keyman software integrated SIL's keyboards system wide, vs what we had to do early on in XP and Vista - e.g., enable Hebrew in the Ctrl Panel, and enable Hebrew in Microsoft Office Language Settings. Now, as you point out, you can just to go to the Ctrl Panel. But, I still find that it is easier to install a Hebrew font and kbd with Keyman than with the Control Panel. [Edit: It seemed that every proprietary program had a Windows Language/keyboard firewall - programs that used biblical Hebrew usually allowed the Hebrew Qwerty phonetic kbd. Keyman software was able to associate third-party keyboard maps with standard Windows Ctrl Panel languages, so when I associated the Ezra SIL map with the Hebrew Qwerty kbd, I was able to use it in every program.] We're at a point where my expertise has run its course, and yours begins. You know a lot more about Unicode than I do. Of course, I'll answer any question I can. And, you're free to choose any font and keyboard you wish. Regards, Michel Edited September 11, 2015 by Michel Gilbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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