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VULG vs VULGATE


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#1 countach

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Posted 09 June 2007 - 07:30 AM

What is the difference between the VULG and VULGATE modules?

#2 Helen Brown

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Posted 09 June 2007 - 08:25 AM

Good question! I am no expert on the Vulgate, but I will give you the official information on the texts.

The VULG is our original module:

Biblia Sacra Iuxta Vulgatam (The Latin Vulgate)
Biblia Sacra Iuxta Vulgatam, 4th revised edition. Edited by Robert Weber.
Copyright © 1969, 1983, 1994 by Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart.

It includes VULG2 with the alternative versions of Esther and Psalms.


The two modules included in the Catholic Collection CD-ROM are:

VULGATE:
Clementine Vulgate (Traditional)
Public Domain
Downloaded from http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net
See “VULGATE Preface” file for more information.

and

VULG-N:
Nova Vulgata (New Vulgate)
©1998 Libreria Editrice Vatican, Vatican City
Used by permission of Amministrazione del Patrimonio Della Sede Apostlica, Vatican City

As far as I know, neither of these has the alternative versions of Esther and Psalms.
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#3 Joe Weaks

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Posted 09 June 2007 - 05:21 PM

Interesting to post regarding the Latin Vulgate in the "Original Languages" forum.
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#4 countach

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Posted 09 June 2007 - 11:05 PM

The description on the web site seems to indicate that both VULG and VULGATE have alternative versions. Other than text, how are they different? The VULG seemed to mention a latin lexicon. is that unique to that one?

#5 countach

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Posted 09 June 2007 - 11:08 PM

Interesting to post regarding the Latin Vulgate in the "Original Languages" forum.


Uh, yeah. Since the vulgate is in the "original language collection"

http://www.accordanc...ails.php?ID=380

something compelled me to post about it here.

#6 Helen Brown

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Posted 09 June 2007 - 11:38 PM

The Latin Dictionary comes only with the VULG on the Scholar's Collection, not the Studienbibel. The website description of the VULGATE was in error (copied from VULG). I have now corrected it. There is punctuation, there are no alternative texts.

The Vulgate is a very early translation, true not really an original language, but an important early witness as the LXX is to the Hebrew Bible, and so are the Targums and Peshitta.
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#7 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 05:06 AM

Interesting to post regarding the Latin Vulgate in the "Original Languages" forum.


It's interesting, isn't it? The Latin Vulgate suggests that it is a translation in its very name. "Vulgate" means "common": it was for many centuries the translation that was commonly used in Latin speaking Western Europe.

In this it is very similar to the Peshitta for Eastern christianity: "Peshitta" means "common", too.

As Helen suggested, the Latin Vulgate is still important for text criticism. It is also important for canonical criticism, as it is a witness to the text that was considered canonical in Western Europe for many centuries.

Edited by Marco, 11 June 2007 - 05:45 AM.

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#8 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 05:27 AM

I will add some notes to the excellent information that Helen already provided.

The VULG is our original module:

Biblia Sacra Iuxta Vulgatam (The Latin Vulgate)
Biblia Sacra Iuxta Vulgatam, 4th revised edition. Edited by Robert Weber.
Copyright © 1969, 1983, 1994 by Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart.

It includes VULG2 with the alternative versions of Esther and Psalms.


VULG (together with the alternate texts in VULG2) is so far the only critical edition of the Vulgate that is available for Accordance. It is an authoritative critical edition, that is useful for research and can be quoted in scholarly papers.

I will elaborate on the double form of the Psalter: the Latin Psalter in VULG is a fresh translation prepared by Eusebius Hieronymus, AKA Jerome. I mean, it was fresh when it was first prepared at the end of the IV century. Jerome translated from the Hebrew text as it was known to him when he was living in Bethlehem. It was later known as the "Psalterium iuxta hebreos", that is the "Psalter according to Hebrews". "Hebrews" is used here as a name for the Jewish people. In modern English we would speak of a Psalter "according to Jews".

The Latin Psalter in Vulg2 is a revision of a more ancient Latin translation of the LXX Psalter, known as Vetus Latina. Jerome made two revisions: the first was a hasty revision, and was later known as Roman Psalter. The second revision, that took longer, was later known as Gallican Psalter, and was accepted in Latin liturgy for choral prayer. The Gallican Psalter is the one that became the most "Vulgate", that is the most common in manuscript tradition.

The Stuttgart edition by Weber includes both of them.

The Accordance module includes the less commonly known "Psalterium iuxta Hebreos" in the main VULG text. This means that the user can find in Vulg a closer translation of the Hebrew Psalter, that is best viewed in parallel with BHS.

On the other hand, Vulg2 contains a translation of the LXX text, that can be examined in parallel with LXX.

Edited by Marco, 11 June 2007 - 05:43 AM.

Marco Valerio Fabbri
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#9 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 06:17 AM

I will elaborate further on the VULGATE and VULG-N module:

The two modules included in the Catholic Collection CD-ROM are:

VULGATE:
Clementine Vulgate (Traditional)
Public Domain
Downloaded from http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net
See “VULGATE Preface� file for more information.

and

VULG-N:
Nova Vulgata (New Vulgate)
©1998 Libreria Editrice Vatican, Vatican City
Used by permission of Amministrazione del Patrimonio Della Sede Apostlica, Vatican City

As far as I know, neither of these has the alternative versions of Esther and Psalms.


The VULGATE module is generated out the Latin Vulgate text published in 1592 in Rome under Pope Clemens VIII: hence its name "Vulgata Clementina". This was a printed edition, that drew on Latin manuscripts that were available in Rome in the XVI century. It was not a critical edition: the editors chose the best manuscript that was at hand and published it.

It served the function of making more widely known the Latin text of the Bible, and it also served the need of a text for use in Roman Catholic liturgy.

Today scholars are more interested in Weber's text. However, Weber's edition is under copyright, while the Vulgata Clementina is in the public domain. The VULGATE module derived from it is less expensive than the VULG module.

VULG-N contains a different text: it stand for Nova Vulgata, that is New Vulgate. It is a revision of the ancient Vulgate, prepared in the XX century for use in Roman Catholic liturgy. It is a copyrighted XX century text.

In the New Vulgate the ancient Latin translation was corrected to draw it closer to the Greek or Hebrew originals as known to XX century scholars. Therefore, VULG-N is not an independent witness of the original text and has no use in text criticism.

As it is a literal translation of the originals, VULG-N can be viewed in parallel with the originals, as a help for those who know Latin better than Greek. This is quite common in Italy, were I live.

It is also interesting for Roman Catholics, because it is the text for use in Liturgy. Nowadays translations into modern languages are more commonly used. Even then, the translator needs to know what text to translate from, when it comes to text that are known to us in different forms, such as Jeremiah, or Tobit. In such cases, the Nova Vulgata makes a choice and translate out of one of several text forms.
Marco Valerio Fabbri
P. Università della S. Croce
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#10 Robb Brunansky

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 08:35 AM

That is some great information, Marco! Thanks for taking the time to post that. Those posts should be combined into a read me file that comes with the Vulgate modules.
Soli Deo Gloria,
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#11 countach

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 08:10 PM

So are you saying there are three Psalters?

Psalterium iuxta hebreos
Roman Psalter
Gallican Psalter

...all three in the Accordance module?

#12 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 12:09 AM

So are you saying there are three Psalters?

Psalterium iuxta hebreos
Roman Psalter
Gallican Psalter

...all three in the Accordance module?


Sorry, I did not explain that clearly.

Only two forms of the Psalter are available, I am afraid. The Roman Psalter is not available. It is not even in the printed Vulgata Stuttgartensia edited by Weber.

The Psalterium iuxta hebreos is in the VULG module, and the Gallican Psalter is in the VULG2 module. The latter is a a small module with alternate texts. It is unlocked at the same time as VULG. They can be viewed in parallel panes, and they can be compared to show the differences.


I found it very useful when I assessing a doctoral dissertation about Psalm 2. My student and I agreed about a fresh translation of Psalm 2,6.

The Hebrew says: ‏ ואני נסכתי מלכי על־ציון הר־קדשׁי

The verb ‏נסכתי is usually translated "I have anointed".

For exegetical reasons, we thought that it could rather be II ‏נסך‎: by-form II ‏סכך. According to KB (AKA HALOT) this means "to entwine, weave". We thought that the act of weaving was a metaphor that referred to formation of the fetus in the womb.

When we checked old translations in Accordance, to our surprise, VULG brought to our attention that the Psalterium iuxta hebreos translates "ego autem orditus sum regem meum", that is "and I have woven my king". This means that, after all, our interpretation was not a fresh one: Jerome had come out with the same translation 15 centuries before us.

Of course, the dissertation mentioned that. The dissertation is available in Spanish: L. García Ureña, 2003, La metáfora de la gestación y del parto al servicio de la analogía. Una lectura de Sl 2,1-7.

In VULG2 we could read the Psalterium Galllicanum, that translated from Greek into Latin. The Greek says: ἐγὼ δὲ κατεστάθην βασιλεὺς ὑπ᾿ αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ Σιων ὄρος τὸ ἅγιον αὐτοῦ.

VULG2 says: ego autem constitutus sum rex ab eo super Sion montem sanctum eius.

That is, "But I have been appointed king by him over Sion, his holy mountain".

That's all. I think it's a good instance of the use of the VULG module.

Edited by Marco, 12 June 2007 - 01:57 AM.

Marco Valerio Fabbri
P. Università della S. Croce
Rome, Italy

#13 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 02:00 AM

That is some great information, Marco! Thanks for taking the time to post that. Those posts should be combined into a read me file that comes with the Vulgate modules.


Robb:

I am glad that you have found this useful. I was already thinking of what you suggest. I would like to write a summary for the next release of the VULG module.
Marco Valerio Fabbri
P. Università della S. Croce
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#14 Alistair

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 08:44 AM

Can anyone elaborate on the differences between the Sixtine and Clementine editions of the Vulgate?

Thanks!

#15 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 10:03 AM

Yes, of course. Both of them are printed editions.

The Sixtine Vulgate is named after Pope Sixtus V (1585-1590). It was published shortly before the Pope's death, and soon retired afterwards, because many mistakes had crept into it.

A revision was carried out under the pontificate of Clement VIII (1592-1605), and eventually printed in 1598. At first its title was unchanged: "Biblia Sacra Vulgatæ editionis, Sixti V Pontificis Maximi iussu recognita et edita". Since 1641 the new edition carried the name of Clement instead of that of Sixtus.

This is why the same edition is sometimes called Sixto-Clementine, and sometimes just Clementine.

Edited by Marco, 07 November 2008 - 10:03 AM.

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#16 Helen Brown

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 12:39 PM

Speaking of the Vulgate, thanks to Marco we will release the complete tagged Vulgate at the SBL meetings later this month.
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#17 Alistair

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 04:55 PM

…because many mistakes had crept into it…


Thanks! Can you elaborate on the textual differences between the two?

Were the mistakes printing errors or transcription errors from the MSS?

How many mistakes/differences are there between the two?

Has the Clementine been changed since then? EG minor editorial work, changes to spelling, punctuation, etc?

From your previous answer you sound like the best person to ask!! Thanks again!

#18 Marco V. Fabbri

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 10:12 AM

Thanks! Can you elaborate on the textual differences between the two?

Were the mistakes printing errors or transcription errors from the MSS?
How many mistakes/differences are there between the two?
Has the Clementine been changed since then? EG minor editorial work, changes to spelling, punctuation, etc?
From your previous answer you sound like the best person to ask!! Thanks again!


Alistair,

thank you for your appreciation. If I understand correctly, you are interested in the differences between the Sixtine and the Clementine edition, aren't you?

Then I am afraid that I don't have much first hand information. The fact is, it is easy to find a Clementine Vulgate, in print or in electronic format, while it is very difficult to find a strictly Sixtine edition. Some research could be done on the internet in order to see if a pdf of the original Sixtine Vulgate is available.

I can share with you my source of information, that is the Catholic Encyclopedia. The entry is "Versions of the Bible", and more specifically, versions from Hebrew. The url is: http://www.newadvent...367a.htm#hebrew

The Catholic Encyclopedia is now outdated, but in this particular matter it should still be reliable, as all the needed documents were available to is redactors.

I might add that the preface to the Clementine Vulgate says that Sixtus V was already aware that errors had crept in, and wanted to correct them in a second edition, but died before he could do that.

The preface to the Clementine says: Quod cum jam esset excusum, et ut in lucem emitteretur, idem Pontifex operam daret, animadvertens non pauca in sacra Biblia præli vitio irrepsisse, quæ iterata diligentia indigere viderentur, totum opus sub incudem revocandum censuit atque decrevit.

I find that the explanation the wikipedia offers in the entry "Vulgate" is a reasonable one. It says that the Sixtine edition was base on the printed edition by Robertus Stephanus, but that corrections had been made to bring that printed edition closer to the then Greek originals as they were available in that moment.

I might say that such an endeavour is very questionable, as the result will be neither a fresh translation from the Greek, nor the old Vulgate translation. And it is one that is based on subjective judgement. My impression is that the Sixtine edition was soon criticized on this basis, and therefore the following Clementine edition erased the corrections that had been unwisely made. In order to be sure , I would need to check a Sixtine edition.

If you are interested in the differences between the critical edition of the Vulgate edited by R. Weber and the Clementine edition, it would be easier for me to comment on that.

Even more, there is a simple comparison that can be made within Accordance: if you open in two parallel pane VULG-T (or VULG, which is drawn from the same printed text) and VULGATE, and then check the box "compare texts", you will have the differences onscreen. Most of them are spelling, punctuation and capital letters, but there are also important text critical differences.

Edited by Marco, 25 November 2008 - 10:13 AM.

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#19 jeallman

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 07:00 AM

Speaking of the Vulgate, thanks to Marco we will release the complete tagged Vulgate at the SBL meetings later this month.


I believe that I have found one tagging error in the VULG-T text, Gen 4:13. The module identifies "veniam" as 1 sg pres subj act from venio. In the context, I believe it should be acc sg from venia, in this case meaning "forbearance, forgiveness, pardon, remission" as in Seneca, Clem 2.7 venia est poenae meritae remissio.

There is likely a second error in Gen 4:16. The module identifies "plagam" as "plague, stripe, wound." However, Lewis and Short list three roots, plaga, the second of which is glossed as "region, quarter, tract."

Thank you for offering the Vulgate. It comes as a timely addition for me.

Edited by jeallman, 01 December 2008 - 07:13 AM.


#20 Helen Brown

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 09:40 AM

Please send tagging and other errors directly to me, rather than posting on the Forum.
Helen Brown
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